First Cycle, Seeking Advice

Please make note: I was giving advise for a first cycle and the first full year of cycles.
My opinion on an AAS stack for optimization of a cycle is One androgen (testosterone) and two to three anabolics: one being an injectable and the other an oral. I usually kept my cycles to 8 weeks, but when doing a cycle that culminated in a bodybuilding contest I incorporated a 12 week cycle where I was changing the anabolics and even adding an additional one. 10 days out I dropped the oil based testosterone and started 100mg of testosterone suspension everyday (even the morning of the show).

So I miss read then. I thought you were advocating oral only.

My bad

I believe you should put your toe in water to see what result a little steroids will be. It won’t long before wetting your toe just isn’t enough. You have plenty of time to get into the deep end. Plus you get the benefit of seeing how well your body adapts to AAS’s.

Let me make an analogy: If you go out there guns a blazing right off the bat, then the next time it’s guns a blazing again or the results are disappointing.

All of everything I said should be taken that your natural testosterone is reasonably normal. It doesn’t have to be at the top of the range.

I had mumps go down on me on one side when I was 15, so it seems reasonable that I had always been lifting with some compromise in my testosterone.

I’m currently running my first blast now. Love me some drugs :joy:.

I do whole heartily agree on going in at the lower end so you have plenty of room to go up!

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You’re not the only one.

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It needs to be said that what is being advocated here is significantly more dangerous than simply running testosterone alone. There is no scientific or medical basis for excluding testosterone from a steroid cycle. As a bio identical hormone it is quite literally the safest thing someone can use within the class of drugs that we’re talking about.

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I believe the idea of this is to have something that will aromatize to e2. Dbol solves that issue, so I can see how it would work by itself. Var or Tbol would be problematic tho

During the '70’s it was widely accepted that Dianabol was the single best anabolic steroid that could be taken. If you took only one steroid, you took Dianabol. The only variable was how much. Stacks became more prevalent the the late '70’s.

Our knowledge at the time was that it was most dangerous to the liver. And that is why we cycled it, to give our liver a rest. It wasn’t until we added testosterone to the stacks that the firsts of us starting to have to deal with gyno.

That is the history of Dianabol that I experienced. It wasn’t based on science, because there was none. Today that’s called Bro-Science.

What about a short duration, butt with test prop or ace and an oral. It would minimize time down, but give you test which you need it at least most need.

I’ll attempt to answer this, but I am no expert on AAS.

As I understand it most oral steroids have a half-life of about 6 hours. For that reason (though we didn’t know it at the time) we took them throughout the day, as in, at every meal.
I notice that the half-life of propionate is about 20 hours and the half-life of acetate is about 4 hours. Seems for effect you would choose the propionate. That said, I don’t see how these would improve any aspect except when you were “off”, you were really “off”.

I really don’t think I gave you a good explanation. But note that is was our belief that, at the doses we were taking, Dianabol did not aromatize. I don’t know of anyone in our gym who took more than 30mg per day. (Did our eyes widen when we heard that Doug Beaver was taking 80mg per day!)

mnben, it seems your belief is that testosterone is required for every cycle. Am I correct? That was never a belief we held. That said, once I started stacking, testosterone was always a component of the stack.

Guys take way, way too much of everything today. If someone can to make serious gains in strength and mass on 30mg of dbol then they’re doing something wrong.

The easy explanation for this is as follows: your testosterone was suppressed (and eventually pushed to near zero) so the only aromatizing agent in your body was the dbol. If you didn’t take huge doses then you were unlikely to get serious high e2 side effects. That’s why it was so effective for you guys. The minute you add testosterone to that combination you now have a lot more estrogen to contend with.

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Do you believe that the testosterone feedback system operates as either “all on” or “all off” (digital). Though I am not schooled in biology, most feedback systems I had knowledge are analog in nature.

I don’t believe the on or off theory, but the doses to be still somewhat on (suppression to a degree) are lower than trt. On the is testosterone needed, I’m in the not necessarily bucket. Dbol can work, but that provides e2, not all orals do that. I think running test at at least trt doses makes good sense.

So if I understand correctly you’re advocating a ‘slow and steady’ approach to using AAS which I wholeheartedly agree with. However, even if you could interpret 4 yearly 8 week long oral only cycles of 15-20mg D-bol cycles as a ‘slow and steady’ approach, I’m not sure how this equates to it being a safer approach than say the equivalent of 150-200 mg of Test E for 10 weeks. I think both approaches are suboptimal for muscle development, both will shut down your natural production, but inherently the oral cycle will be much more strenuous on one’s liver. Did I get this right?

Also, how did your liver hold up after so many oral cycles in the 70’s and 80’s? Did you ever get it checked?

It’s been a while but do could you quantify your gains after one of those D-bol cycles? I assume you put on a lot of water weight that went away after you stopped only to put it back on again a month later. What was your increase in strength during the cycle and how much did you manage to keep after quitting D-bol?

Lastly, while I was on the fence about adding either D-bol or T-bol to this cycle, I went with T-bol because I don’t like the bloated, puffy look I see when others take D-bol. Also, T-bol, while not completely safe, still is milder than D-bol when it comes to aromatisation and hepatotoxicity.

You seem to know your orals so could you provide an oral-only alternative to D-bol that is less toxic to the liver, provides strength gains and enough aromatisation without the bloated look and will not completely shut down my natural production?

Doesn’t exist. The only oral you could conceivably run solo without major issues is dbol.

Yes but only if you get gyno. So you get gyno as in it starts to form. Then you start taking Tamox. Then it will shrivel back up where it came from. If you take it for prevention as in before you even know if you’ll have issues, you have no benefit and run the risk of side effects (which aren’t non-existent, they can be serious!). So take only as needed. Because less drugs is generally better.

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I’ll start answering this portion of your questions. As you know, everyone responds differently to AAS. I never noticed the water bloat that seems to be a very commonly believed adverse reaction to Dianabol. But I never took high dosages.

Try to imagine a graphical picture of my progress in strength and hypertrophy: “Natural” every 12 weeks would be one step forward. So, after 48 weeks “natural” I would have improved 4 steps. On my Dianabol cycles it was like for 8 weeks I made 3 steps forward, followed by 4 weeks of taking one step backward. So, after 48 weeks of Dianabol cycles I would improve 8 steps. Slow, yet steady…

Please consider that it was my experience that low doses of Dianabol did not shut off my natural production of testosterone. If testosterone has any play in sexual performance and mine was shut off, the Dianabol must have had the same function as testosterone.

When I first started TRT I was on 200mg testosterone cypionate a week. My first blood test that I had taken was 1300 ng/dL. My doctor said I was too high. I had taken the blood test only two days after my last injection. I learned to time my blood tests to the last day before my next injections, but after the blood was drawn. I now take 100mg every 5 days.

All that said, IMO 20mg of Dianabol yields far superior results than 200mg of testosterone a week. On Dianabol my testosterone, though suppressed, still contributed some. That is my opinion, but as Dalton says, “Opinions vary.”

Though I didn’t get many blood tests in my 20’s, 30’s, and 40’s, whenever I did I always had slightly elevated liver enzyme numbers. Heavy weightlifting alone elevates liver enzymes. I still have moderately high liver enzymes, and routinely my doctor (every four years or so) sends me for liver scans. They always come up negative, at least, so far.

Ok, taking everything into consideration, I’ll proceed with the following cycle:

Test C week 1-12 @500mg (250mg split Mon/Thur)
Turinabol week 10-15 @20mg ed

PCT:
Tamoxifen week 16-21 @20mg ed

Have AI and Tamox on hand in case of gyno issues

Reason I went this route is because I’ve been considering doing 1 proper cycle that will most likely further decrease my TT and free test numbers enough to be put on TRT. I feel I should already be on it and if it weren’t for the overly conservative doctors already would be.

If and when I get on TRT, once I’m dialed in in a year or two, I’ll continue with small but meaningful cycles, maybe 1-2 a year, depending on how I react to trt. Perhaps I’ll even try D-bol along with my trt dose, although I’ll mostly be looking for lean gains.

@RT_Nomad the reason I’m skipping the oral only 8 week cycles is basically because I have different goals and ambitions than you did when you started cycling dbol when you were in your early 20’s. I certainly admire your long-term dedication and passion towards bodybuilding. But I’m not interested in running 4 cycles of D-bol per year although you did explain the methodology behind how it worked for you and for those you trained alongside with at the time.

I’m thankful for everyone that contributed and helped me tweak my cycle. Cheers!