T Nation

First Cycle Results, What Next?


#1

Hi Everyone,
Anyway, ive recently completed my first cycle:

Dbol = 20mgs/d - 2 weeks; then 40mgs/d - 2 weeks
Test E = 500 p/w - 12 weeks
Winstrol started in the 7th - 10th week (2 weeks = 30mgs/day, 2 weeks = 40mgs/day)
Nolvadex used 10mg/ED for 6 weeks during cycle to minimize sides

PCT
HCG = 2000ius day 1, 1000ius day 3, 500ius day 6
1000ius day 8, 500ius day 12, 250ius day 14, 250ius day 18 ..end

Arimidex = 1.25mgs EOD for a week, 0.5mgs EOD for a week, 0.25 EOD for a week and finaly 0.25 Every 3rd say for a week...end

from 1st day of PCT:
Nolvadex = 60mgs on day 1, there after 40mgs ED for 10 days, 20mgs ED for 10 days, 10mgs EOD for 10 days
Clomid = 300mgs on day 1, there after 50mgs for 10 days, 50mgs for 10 days, 20mgs EOD for 10 days.

Also too Tribulus Terestus near the end of PCT, Vitamin B-Complex for 3 weeks.

Now i know my PCT is a bit extreme but i was hoping to minimise crashing and wanted to retain most of my gains. I had very impressive gains. Went from 79kg up until 90kg at my peak...during cutting phase i dropped down to around 87/88kg. The problem now is that since im off everything ...ive gone down to 84kg ...and seems like ive lost most of my gains.

prior to starting the cycle - when ever i trained hard it seemed as if my balls would get smaller ...probably from the testosterone i use up. I have been training naturally for many years. Anyway, i think this partly contributes to why ive lost most of my gains as probably (and im speculating now) my natural testosterone was low to start with and after coming off everthing even though i tried my best to keep my gains, with my initially low natural testosterone to start with, it didnt help with keeping the gains.

So my question is, how do i get my natural testosterone up (should I run another course of HCG or perhaps proviron?), and secondly my next cycle im thinking of running:

Primobolan for 10 weeks, with Dbol for 6 weeks, with maybe Anavar for the final 4 weeks.
Then do more a clomid, hcg PTC, and only use nolva if I feel im getting sides.

Thoughts and advice from the more senior guys would be preferable.

Thanks

John


#2

Well John you learned the hard way that PCT is as important as the actual on cycle portion.
Im not going to kick you while you are down but whoever gave you the advice they did on PCT did you a great disservice. Your hcg protocol is completely wrong for an intended goal of natural recovery.

In the future hcg should be used on cycle and discontinued once you commence PCT. The same goes for the adex. 1.25mg EOD is no doubt where some of those gains went to Holy Moly. Remember estrogen itself is not your enemy; too much estrogen may be but so is too little. Also its not necessary to run both Nolva and Clomid for your PCT SERM.

I could not gauge exactly how long its been since you ended your so called PCT but your own natural resources will take weeks to re-ramp up after that unfortunate PCT. At this point you really dont have a lot of options if you intend to ramp up. HCG is not advised and it is actually suppressive. Proviron wont do anything from a muscle building standpoint.

Some might consider re running your Nolva to stimulate endogenous test but at this point without knowing more I dont know if I'd go that route either.

Might just have to chalk this one up as a lesson learned of what not too do in the future.
Also there are some very good stickies atop this forum. Give them all a read. Hopefully if you do you'll see why your proposed second cycle is sub-optimal at best. Also in a case like yours the test taper might be much better for you.


#3

Hey Saps,

thanks for the constructive feedback. Much appreciate it. I ended my PCT about a month ago. I incorporated ideas for the PCT from various forums and sites (isteroids.com as an example). But I have read that HCG should be run during the cycle as opposed to at the end. I did, however, run it on the last week of the cycle, which is 3 weeks before PCT...since there were a 2 week break after the last test shot.

Not too sure when I would be able to start another cycle. I was thinking October/November? Since they say you should be off the same amount of time you were on?

I do know the 2nd cycle I proposed is less than good. Most say without a test base you wasting your time. But ive heard guys do pretty well on the primobolan and dianabol cycle...I just thought I'd throw in Anavar for a few weeks. Arnold did the primo/dbol stuff as well according to the isteroids site.
Its a pretty weak cycle but Im thinking the gains will be better retained?


#4

Dont believe everything you read on the internet especially if you read it at isteriods.
Start with the stickies here. You have months to gather information and make better future choices


#5

Thanks buddy. Will do. Much appreciate the advice.


#6

True this^^^^^especially on others dosing regime
Old rule of thumb; Time on = Time off.


#7

Time on + PCT = time off


#8

thanks guys. Yep aware of the time on + pct = time off rule. A pity though since i think ive only kept about 1kg - 1.5kg of my results. Which is not bad but Ive read up that Testosterone Enanthate/Cyponate one doest keep alot of the gains.

So which test base would be the best to allow one to retain most of the gains even though it might be slow but quality gains? Ive read that possibly Sustanon or Omnadren 250 is pretty good as a base to retain gains. Also ive heard using Deca is good but i dont like the idea of it staying in your system for 48 months. Also you would have to use it with a test base anyway since it affects your libido quite a bit. This is why i thought to leave the test and use Primobolan as a base. Generally Primo although expensive ..at higher doses can give some seriously good results..or so ive read.

thoughts anyone?

feedback on my progress. I have been off everything for just over month now. Initially my balls were like quite small after the cycle and also with a reduced libido. But things are coming right, they have regained their size, my libido is back, and things are looking up (excuse the pun hahah). Following the time on time off rule, I would only be able to start my next cycle near the end of November beginning of December 2010.


#9

I'd like to know where you read that.


#10

most of the forums the guys mention it, theres sites like sterology, bill roberts, etc etc ...some of our local sites here also mention it...elitefitness, etc

i went from 78/79kg up to 89/90kg during my cycle. Im now down to 83/84kg

also logically, test will definitely cause naturally surpression of your own test production since you taking it externally (dose dependent). I was taking 500 per week which is sort of standard. Also i used nova during my cycle to keep the water retention down to a minimum.


#11

Retaining gains is not so much about what you use while on but how you come off.


#12

agreed. But is there a Test base that one can use which has a lower likelyhood of surpressing your own test. Yes PCT is a must but ive read that Test E and Test Cyp cause good muscle mass but is more difficult to keep when coming off due to the duration of most test E and Cyp cycles, also the half life of these tests. Ive read Test Prop, Sust and even deca are better for keeping gains mostly because they work out of your system faster..so pct is more effective.

However i wouldnt be interested in running deca from a personal point of view (dont like the 48 month period for it to completely be out of your system). Im thinking a Primo cycle with a test prop / sust base and dbol to kick it off. Then maybe end off with Anavar (to cut) / or winny. Nova here and there during the cycle to keep water retention/bloat down, with also HCG during the heavy part of the cycle and clomid and proviron as part of PCT? I was thinking of also running HGH for 6 months starting during the cycle. Staggered 2iu/day ..working my way up to 4iu...then tapering. I was thinking also to taper the test prop.

Thoughts?


#13

Neither sustanon or nandrolone deca will clear the system faster than cyp or enathate. Do more research.

This whole post make me shake my head. So much of it is fucked up. You may as well forget everything you know about steroids and start from square one.

Youre honestly one of the least "ready" people I've come across in a long time


#14

dude give a guy a break. Yes im a newbie but do you blame me for saying a bit of rubbish now and then...as theres soooo much contradictory info on the net, you cant blame us for getting confused. THis is the whole purpose of these forums, to gain clarity about what one reads on the net with the help of more experienced people?

With that said, the only reason i said test prop seems better was mostly because you have to inject it regularly in order for it to remain active as opposed to test e or cyp that you can inject once a week and it remains active for longer. Or is that something thats incorrect? Hey im learning so please educate me.

If i knew everything, i wouldnt be on here asking questions and trying to learn.

I know most guys will flame me on wanting to do primo and dbol as a cycle...they will ask wheres the test?... Im basically here to try and find out which second cycle I can do (without deca) where the results are quality, yet slow, and what pct would be advisable.

The last cycle i did as mentioned was Test E at 500mg per week (split into 2 does on a mon and thursday), dbol for the first 5 weeks, winstrol for the remaining time with clen for about 3 weeks.. The cycle was awsome ...I didnt have any bloat or water retention. Its just a pity my PCT messed things up, but i actually found an article on another forum that i thought seemed pretty good. I'll post that next.

But guys, please could you give me advice as to what cycle i should do next where the gains are quality and slow, and what pct?

Stats:
im 1.75m tall, currently 84kg, have been training for 15 years, 30 years old. 1 cycle under my belt.

Thanks and sorry for some of the dumb things i might have said before, just trying to learn and get info.


#15

Heres the PCT i followed in my last cycle.... which you guys are telling me is total bull?

The GP PCT Protocol
Well I finally have a few minutes to write this up. Some of this is going to be counter-intuitive to what you know about PCT and go against what you have read about the use of certain PCT drugs. But I used this protocol my last cycle and kept EVERY SINGLE POUND I GAINED, and kept 95% of my strength. First thing to remember during PCT is that as soon as you finish you last shot/pill of your cycle, your androgen levels are going to plummet. Most people will be at almost negligible testosterone levels by the end of 10 days. Testosterone is going to be low, estrogen is going to be elevated and cortisol is going to be elevated, you need to get you test levels back up to normal as fast as possible to maintain what you have gained in your cycle. Here are the compounds you will need for PCT. an aromatase inhibitor, I prefer Letrozole for many reasons, a SERM, novladex being the obvious choice, and HCG. So you are going to begin the Letrozole/AI the last week/2nd to last week of your cycle. before your last shot. Why? you want to start suppressing estrogen as soon as possible. High estrogen levels are suppressive of testosterone production, because in the male body estrogen is primarily produced by the aromatization of testosterone and via the negative feedback system high estrogen means to the hypothalamus that there is an overproduction so it shuts off test production to allow estogen to normalize: no substrate, no estrogen. Letrozole is particularly effective as eliminating estrogen from the body, studies have shown it can block upwards of 98% of estrogen produced. Another benefit of Letro is that it also can supress progesterone to an extent, decreasing the progesterone gyno certain compounds can induce. Additionally it has been shown to increase levels of Luteinizing hormone(LH) and Follicle Stimulating hormone(FSH), the two key hormones in sperm and testosterone production. The important thing to prevent estrogen rebounds from AI's is tapering off. When I lay out the protocol in numbers I will explain further. Second compound is Novladex or another SERM. Novla is the significantly more effective than clomid and has a lower incidence of sides. It has no direct effect on estrogen itself, but it blocks estrogen receptors preventing it from having any net effect on tissue susceptible to estrogen, aka breast tissue. Like Letrozole, it too has a stimulating effect on LH and FSH. A big bonus when trying to restimulate the testes to produce testosterone. Novla will be started 1 week after the last shot/pill of your cycle. The third compound is Human Chorianic Gonadotropin (HCG). This has a direct effect on the testes, the Leydig cells specifically, in stimulating them to produce testosterone. The benefit is immediate stimulation of testosterone production, the downside is that HCG is suppressive of LH production, so HCG will be run for 1 week early in PCT. There are some supplements that we are going to use to help stimulate the libido and to help decrease cortisol. These are DHEA and/or 7-OH DHEA, Tribulus and a B-complex. DHEA is a substrate for the production of testosterone, if you know your cholesterol to testosterone chart DHEA is the crossroad compound. It can be used to create more
testosterone. It is also moderately effective at blunting cortisol and at increasing libido. 7-OH DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA and has a more direct effect on decreasing cortisol levels. Tribulus, while it actually converts to DHEA, is effective at increasing sperm production and at stimulating the libido somewhat, useful but not 100% necessary. And a B-complex is also effective for helping to decrease cortisol levels. So without further ado, here is the protocol. if its a week before the end of the cycle it will read week -(minus)1,2 etc. meaning 1 week before the end/2 weeks before the end, etc...

HCG Day 1-3 PCT 1000iu day 4 500iu day 5 250iu
Letrozole weeks -2 through week 2 of PCT - dose 1.25mg EOD weeks 3 dose - .50 mg EOD week 4 dose .25 mg EOD Week 5 dose .25 E3D - this is the taper.. will help ease the rebound Novladex Weeks 2-6,7 PCT - 20mg day I have yet to see a study showing higher doses are more effective at anything other than decreasing IGF-1 production. DHEA weeks 1-5 PCT - 25mg day 7-OH DHEA weeks 1-5 PCT - 100-200mg day Tribulus weeks 1-5 PCT 1000mg day B-complex 2 servings a day AM and PM