First Cycle Questions

Pharma
#1

Alright fellas, I’m about two weeks away from starting that first cycle. I’ve spent enough time planning this out and getting all all my supplies together, so let me know what you think. Also, I’ve got some specific questions listed at the end.

Background: Started “working out” with weights back in the college days. Started “training” when I found this site, around 2.5 years ago. At my best, I was up to 216 lbs following a four-week MAG-10 Legacy cycle. I’ve just spent the last six weeks or so getting leaner again in preparation for this step.

Goals for this cycle:

  1. Get to 225 lbs already. (I’m 6’2)
  2. Nearly all of my 20’s are behind me, so it’s time to find out what all this test hype is really about.
  3. And find out how my body responds to cyp and prop esters.

Cycle (12 weeks) + Test-Taper Therapy (6 weeks)
Weeks 1-10: Test Cyp 400mg/wk (Mon, Thurs)
Week 11-12: Test Cyp 200mg/wk (Mon, Thurs)
Week 13-14: Test Prop 100mg/wk (Mon, Wed, Sat)
Week 15-16: Test Prop 50mg/wk (Mon, Wed, Sat)
Week 17-18: Test Prop 25mg/wk (Mon, Wed, Sat)

As of now, even though I do have plenty of nolvadex and proviron on hand, I don’t plan on including any AIs or SERMs during the cycle. Why not? Well, three reasons:

  1. The fact that estrogen is necessary for optimal gains.
  2. It’s “only” 400mg/wk, and I’m working from a pretty lean starting point.
  3. I’d like to accurately judge my body’s sensitivity to any estrogen sides during this truly “test-only” cycle.

Alright fellas, hit me with any feedback, criticism, advice. I’m especially interested in your guys’ thoughts on the estrogen control, or lack thereof.

-Are my reasons (for not including arimidex) legit?
-Do the benefits of decreased estrogen levels considerably outweigh the potential drawback of limiting gains?
-Is estrogen even something to worry about at “only” 400mg/wk?

#2

I’d support your thoughts on not have a true AI and yes I don’t believe 400mg’s a week warrant usage of such a product. Using the proviron alongside the test you’ll have mild ai benefits anyway.

The thing you don’t really mention was how used use your proviron and nolvadex on cycle. Or what you’d do post cycle with the nolva. Was your test taper to be your entire PCT?

#3

[quote]sapasion wrote:
The thing you don’t really mention was how used use your proviron and nolvadex on cycle. Or what you’d do post cycle with the nolva. Was your test taper to be your entire PCT?[/quote]

That’s correct, sapasion.

While the nolvadex is ready in case anything itchy or bumpy appears, I don’t plan on using it (or the proviron) at any point during the cycle or PCT.

#4

[quote]chillain wrote:
sapasion wrote:
The thing you don’t really mention was how used use your proviron and nolvadex on cycle. Or what you’d do post cycle with the nolva. Was your test taper to be your entire PCT?

That’s correct, sapasion.

While the nolvadex is ready in case anything itchy or bumpy appears, I don’t plan on using it (or the proviron) at any point during the cycle or PCT.

[/quote]

personally, I’d use the proviron during. Consider using the nolva at the end of your taper period,and slighlty after, say maybe weeks 17-20. This method of using a taper in conjunction with SERM application has worked well for me, after finishing quite a lengthy cycle.

Just my 2cc’s

#5

Agreed. NO matter how much and slowly you taper off its still exogenous Test. At least a couple weeks of Nolva is safer.

#6

Only done one cycle but I did a test only taper and liked it. I plan to do it again. I am not starting a war and maybe when I finally try nolva along with the taper my mind will be changed. I don’t claim to know “the way” just giving experience.

#7

Some people take very well to the taper program others not at all. Overall dosage during cycle plays a factor as does duration of taper.

#8

Looks pretty good. I do not understand why you switch to a fast-acting ester for the taper when a long lasting one should provide a little taper on own. I think that if using Prop - taper with Prop; if using Enan, taper with Enan unless you are simply trying to quickly get on cycle again, which with a taper it would appear that you are not.

It just seems like a mix of two theory’s to me: the ‘clear the test fast so I can recover’ - using prop at the end of a long-estered to cycle to “control” when all of the test will leave and - using a taper which would have the test slowly leave (lower).

I just can’t think of any logical reason to use prop for a taper if you aren’t using it to begin with(or you ran out and that’s all you had).

Other than that, I differ on the whole estrogen view-point than most. I always feel that one should keep estrogen within a normal range - do not lower it to an extreme, but do not let it get above normal - estogen kills testicle cells and effect recovery, plus the other sides like acne and bloat. I would either run the Proviron or Adex at .25mg/eod-ed - not a lot of estrogen suppression, but should keep it within normal ranges as your dosage is not high, but -in my opinion- should still be kept in check (normal range) which just Proviron or very low dose Adex will do.

I personally run 420mg of prop/week quite often, (which is equivalent to 500mg of enan due to the fact that Prop has around 83% test and Enan has around 70%,) and run .25mg adex and Proviron and my estrogen levels are always between 10-70.

I like how you wish to see how your body reacts, I also think that one should get blood tests before, during and after their cycle to have some numbers to back up their subjective opinions/feelings plus some reference numbers.

Regarding the gains, I doubt many will agree with me, but I have never seen a study that showed that “raised” estrogen helped with gains, at least long-lasting muscular ones. From what I see (not saying its gold though) is that the ‘gain all you can and keep the E’ cyclers might gain 20 and lose 6 ending with a gain of 14, while the ones that CONTROL estrogen will gain 16 and lose 2 ending with the same gain of 14lbs even though they didn’t gain that extra 4 pounds of water, which isn’t very hard not to notice as being water weight by the way.

I hope I have helped or at least given another consideration, it’s late and I am tired so my post is probably all over the place, but…hope it’s understandable and of resource.

#9

Thanks for your input fellas. I’ll include the nolvadex near the end because I just don’t see any reason not to. Now about the taper and the estrogen…

[quote]TheBeat wrote:
Looks pretty good. I do not understand why you switch to a fast-acting ester for the taper when a long lasting one should provide a little taper on own. I think that if using Prop - taper with Prop; if using Enan, taper with Enan unless you are simply trying to quickly get on cycle again, which with a taper it would appear that you are not. [/quote]

I’m under the impression that a proper taper requires prop, since the weekly numbers (during the taper period) wouldn’t be accurate enough if using the longer esters.

Heh, personal quantitative evidence? That’s unheard of! :wink:

[quote]Regarding the gains, I doubt many will agree with me, but I have never seen a study that showed that “raised” estrogen helped with gains, at least long-lasting muscular ones. From what I see (not saying its gold though) is that the ‘gain all you can and keep the E’ cyclers might gain 20 and lose 6 ending with a gain of 14, while the ones that CONTROL estrogen will gain 16 and lose 2 ending with the same gain of 14lbs even though they didn’t gain that extra 4 pounds of water, which isn’t very hard not to notice as being water weight by the way.

I hope I have helped or at least given another consideration, it’s late and I am tired so my post is probably all over the place, but…hope it’s understandable and of resource.[/quote]

Great post, which has me rethinking things now wrt elevated estrogen levels. Even if I don’t end up with any estrogen sides during the cycle, I’d still have to deal with the elevated estrogen at the cycle’s end. But if no SERM will reduce that estrogen on its own, doesn’t that make an AI mandatory after all? (Otherwise you’re forced to deal with a period of time, ie. post-cycle until homeostasis is reestablished, during which estrogen is considerably higher than test.) So an AI is really the only way to eliminate that period of excessive E in proportion to T?

If I’ve got correct, it would be kinda dumb to run any amount of test (for an extended period) without an AI. How does my thinking sound?

#10

sounds like you have the hang of it. some people just must get big at all costs, they won’t sacrifice the ‘gains’ from bloat for anything.