T Nation

First Cycle Questions

After much research regarding my first cycle (mostly negative side effects vs. potential tissue/strength building capabilites) I have decided to center my cycle around Nandrolone Decanoate. I am not ready to start the cycle yet as i am still researching.

Question 1: I was curouis if someone could tell me what makes for the better potential stack when considering, negative side effects vs. potential tissue/strength building capabilites. 1. Nandrolone Decanoate and Stanozol or 2. Nandrolone Decanoate and Equipose (EQ). I have heard/read good things about both.

Question 2: With a non-aromitizing cycle such as the above two cycles. Is it neccesary to use something such as clomiphene or tamoxifen in order to increase endegonous test. levels post-cycle. Or would I be able to get away with supplementation of tribulus and over the counter anti estrogen?

Question 3: Can anyone comment regarding what they may have heard or read regarding British Dragon products and their quality?

I appreciate the help.

Bro,
Deca increases collagen synthesis to the greatest degree and not far behind it are eq,primobolan, and anavar (not in that particular order).
Winstrol, along with testosterone, does just the opposite and decreases collagen synthesis.
Winstrol definitely has pros and cons. I think if your joints are in good shape and training technique is right on the money, you’d be fine running a cycle with winstrol…However,It’s the idiots who have no clue on how to train, but remember hearing that ben johnson got busted for winstrol that take the drug and get injured.

MK

Deca and winny is considered one of the “classic cycles”. The two drugs compliment each other well and the deca offsets any joint pains winny might bring about. I might be inclined to add a bit of test to this cycle because deca can have some somewhat unpleasant sexual side effects.

I would question your choice of deca and EQ as a cycle, as both drugs are quite similar in their effect. When planning a cycle, the goal is to include drugs that are complimentary to each other. Deca and EQ are often regarded as substitutes for each other. I’d also point out that these drugs have some of the longest half lives of any steroid. For use in a 6-8 week cycle, there are much better choices that won’t complicate recovery to the same extent that these will.

Both Deca and EQ can aromatize. Not to a great extent, but it is possible. You will want to have nolva/clomid on hand to be safe.

You will also DEFINETLY want nolva and/or clomid for your PCT. Deca is regarded as one of the most difficult drugs to recover from. Partly this is due to its very long half life and people begining recovery too soon. You would need to wait at least 3-4 weeks or more after your last injection of deca to begin a successful PCT. Whenever using pharmaceutical steroids, you must use pharmaceutical ancillary drugs. Don’t try to use a herbal remedy for something as important as anti-e. Use tribulus as well if you feel the need, but definetly include the nolva/clomid.

BD makes a quality product from what i hear. Overpriced, but reputable.

JP

Thanks guys the help is very appreciated. After seeing justinp’s response I noted his comment about adding in test to combat “unpleasant sexual side effects”. I did some more research and really couldnt find much except for post cycle problems. I figure these can be combated through the use of clomid and nolvadex, to restore the body’s natural test production. Please correct me if I am wrong, as im sure u can agree thats a problem i just cannot afford to have

I am able to get Winstrol tabs 10mg (British Dragon Thailand), Decabol 10ml 250mg/ml (British Dragon Thailand, Nolvadex 20mg tabs (Zenca Greece), Clomid 50mg tabs (sepefar greece. I know the general way to construct my cycle. But I was hoping to get a little help or advice. Is front loading a good idea with this etc? I would really appreciate some help on this as I want to make sure I do this correctly.

The sexual side effect the previous poster was most likely referring to was a phenomenon called “deca dick” i.e. you cant get a hard on. Most people fix this problem by adding some test with deca. Frontloading is definately a good idea when your looking at long half-lifed estered compounds such as deca. Just my 2cc. Goodluck!

OK I have decided to swtich from Nandrolone to Boldenone (equipoise) after doing some more reading. Below is my cycle outlined. Keep in mind this is my first cylce and tell me if it looks ok. (fyi: i choose not to do something simpler such as test alone because i am looking to avoid certain side effects and to use a less aromitizing alternative).

Week 1-3
Equipoise 400mg/week
Nolvadex 10mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 400mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 20mg/day
Nolvadex 10mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day
Milk Thistle

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 20 mg/day
Nolvadex 10mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day
Milk Thistle

Weeks 9-11
Clomid 100mg/day
HCG 2000 iu’s every 5th day
Nolvadex 20mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

Week 12
Clomid 100mg/day
Nolvadex 20mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

-Then Begin tribulus, creatine

Note:

  1. I chose to use the Nolvadex throughout the cycle to prevent any gyno. Although insignificant, I have never used anabolics and already have some tissue under the nipple from adolsecent growth i guess. Im figuring this makes me more susceptible to gyno and want to avoid that. Will this suppress gains too much and/or is there a better way to achieve this goal, with similar caution/less suppression of gains? Or is this ok?

2 Should I take more of the EQ/Winny on the first injection/day

3 How does the PCT look, am i overdoing it with the HCG etc, and did i allow a long enough time after last EQ inj. before beginning HCG/Clomid?

-Thanks guys

My thoughts:

Your winny dosage is real low. 20mg/day is not going to be worthwhile. I would say at least 50mg, and don’t be afraid to go higher than that.

You might want to frontload your EQ in the first week, and discontinue it sooner. The halflife is something like 16 days. That makes for a long wait for it to kick in, and a long wait for it to get out of you.

How you use HCG is kind of a personal preference. Some people here use it for PCT, and some use it during their cycle and discontinue it before begining PCT. I would suggest that with a simple and short cycle such as this, using HCG is probably not necessary. Take that money and spend it on some more winny. If you decide to use HCG, make sure you know how to. If you don’t, it can be quite useless.

Why the vitamin B6?

I would also reccomend that you don’t use your nolvadex unless you need to. EQ is a low aromatizing drug, and winny can even counteract estrogen and progesterone to a certain extent. Keep your nolvadex available, but don’t use it unless you get some itchy nipples. (some people disagree with this type of anti-e use, but i think it will be ok in the case of this cycle).

Your PCT looks alright. I might up the nolvadex dosage to 40mg for the first week or so. However, i think you might need to give yourself more clearance from the EQ. You would need at least 3 weeks from your last inject. To find out exactly, use the steroid calculator, i can’t recall where it is but google it.

JP

your winny dose is very low, and considering it’s oral winny… even lower. generally, when taking orals, you need to take twice as much as you would via intramuscular injection.

so since 50 mg of winny ED via injection is a low-moderate dose, you’re gonna need around 75-100 mg per day orally.

needless to say, i’m expecting that to be quite expensive.

opt for injections.

Oral winny can be cheaper, you just have to look around. I’ve found that unless you’re using a highly reputable depot winny orals are the way to go. Some of the less reputable depot winnys will not suspend properly and clog your needle up and be a general pain to inject.

Find a good UG oral winny and you’re set. There are lots out there.

if you lived closer i’d drive over and pay you a visit if you’ve got access to cheap oral winny. :slight_smile:

LOOK FOR MY ADVICE WITHIN THE BODY OF YOUR POST:

[quote]shwagna816 wrote:
OK I have decided to swtich from Nandrolone to Boldenone (equipoise) after doing some more reading. Below is my cycle outlined. Keep in mind this is my first cylce and tell me if it looks ok. (fyi: i choose not to do something simpler such as test alone because i am looking to avoid certain side effects and to use a less aromitizing alternative).

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day
Milk Thistle

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day
Milk Thistle

Weeks 9-11
Clomid 100mg/day
HCG 2000 iu’s every 5th day
Nolvadex 20mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

Week 12
Clomid 100mg/day
Nolvadex 20mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

-Then Begin tribulus, creatine

Note:

  1. I chose to use the Nolvadex throughout the cycle to prevent any gyno. Although insignificant, I have never used anabolics and already have some tissue under the nipple from adolsecent growth i guess. Im figuring this makes me more susceptible to gyno and want to avoid that. Will this suppress gains too much and/or is there a better way to achieve this goal, with similar caution/less suppression of gains? Or is this ok? THE AROMATIZATION OF EQUIPOISE IS VERY MINIMAL. COMBINE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT WINSTROL DOWN-REGULATES THE ER MEANS AROMATIZATION SHOULD NOT BE A BIG PROBLEM. WITH THIS SAID, KEEP NOLVA ON HAND JUST IN CASE YOU FEEL NIPPLE SENSITIVITY, IF NOT DON’T USE IT, AS IT WILL LIMIT YOU GAINING POTENTIAL.

2 Should I take more of the EQ/Winny on the first injection/day SEE THE FRONTLOAD I ADDED TO YOUR CYCLE. THIS WILL MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE FOR YOUR CYCLE EXPERIENCE.

ALSO WHY NOT USE CREATINE WHILE ON CYCLE? THAT IS WHEN YOUR BODY IS BEST ABLE TO USE EXTRA PROTEIN, CALS, AND SUPS.

3 How does the PCT look, am i overdoing it with the HCG etc, and did i allow a long enough time after last EQ inj. before beginning HCG/Clomid? THERE ARE MANY SCHOOLS OF THOUGH ABOUT HCG USE. HERE IS WHAT I BELIEVE: LESS IS BEST! INSTEAD OF WAITING UNTILL THE END OF YOUR CYCLE THEN OVERLOADING YOUR LEYDIG RECEPTORS WITH THAT MUCH HCG (HALF LIFE OF HCG IS ABOUT 3 HOURS THIS MEANS ALL THAT SYNTHETIC LH IS HITTING YOUR LEYDIG RECEPTORS IN LESS THEN A DAY - SOMETHING YOUR OWN PITUITARY COULD NEVER HOPE TO ACHIEVE = DESENSITIZATION OF THE LEYDIG RECEPTORS), BEGIN YOUR HCG AT DAY 21 OF YOUR CYCLE. THIS IS THE POINT WHERE TESTICULAR SUPPRESSION USUALLY BEGINS. USE 100-250 IU EVERY 3RD DAY UNTILL THE END OF YOUR CYCLE. THE END OF YOUR CYCLE IS WHEN BLOOD LEVELS OF EQUIPOISE HAVE DROPPED SUFFICIENTLY TO BEGIN PCT. THATS AROUND THE 4 WEEK POST LAST INJECT

-Thanks guys[/quote]

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day
Milk Thistle

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Milk Thistle

Weeks 9-11
Clomid 100mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Nolvadex 20mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

Week 12
Clomid 100mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Nolvadex 20mg/day
Vitamin B-6 100mg/day

-Then Begin tribulus

Concerns:

  1. From what i have read Equipoise is normally run at 200-400mg per week. The cycle that P22 helped to create has 3 weeks at 800mg, and 3 weeks at 600mg. Is this going to put the levels of EQ too high conisdering this is my first cycle. Also at this point even though EQ only aromitizes slightly and winstrol can counteract this with levels this high wouldnt nolvadex only certainly be needed during the cycle.

  2. Also accroding to what ive read “For men the usual dosage of Winstrol? is 15-25mg per day for the tablets and 25-50mg per day with the injectable”. Considering I will be taking oral winny is 50mg possibly too high?

  3. Lasltly, I have read that HCG when taken for extended period of time normally 3 weeks or more: “the drug may actually function to desensitize the Leydig’s cells to luteinizing hormone, further hindering a return to homeostasis”. On this cycle (granted it would be at a low dose), the HCG would be running for 8! weeks?

Remember Equipoise has a very long half life. about 14 days or so. This means that 800 mg in one week will take about 2 weeks to reduce by half. Thats 200 mg being absorbed per week by your system. That is why you need to use a higher weekly dose. Also take into account that you will continue to have good levels of eq in your body 4 weeks after your last injection.

As for hcg, The argument for using small amounts regularly while on cycle is to avoid testicular atrophy. Atrophy can create tissue remodeling of the testes, where actual irreversible scar tissues are formed. Using small amounts will minimize the desensitization caused. Less is best! in this case.
In the case of steroids more is best!

And whereever you got the info about 25 mg of winstrol per day, that is a huge conservative lump of horse shit. There is no point in fucking with your htpa if you are not going to make decent gains while doing so. As far as the hpta goes there is no difference in suppression between using 200mg of AAS a week and 2000mg of AAS per week. You will be just as suppressed by cycle end. Only difference is you will grow more on the 2 grams. Admittedly 2 grams per week is a little much - for a first timer, but 1 gram isn’t asking too much it you want to have a successful experience. Just know this - you absolutely cannot overdose on AAS.

This is the final product. Give me your critique or input on the cycle. How does the HCG use look? I started it at day 21 when suppression begins and ended treatment when PCT starts. PCT starts 4 weeks after the last injection of EQ(Week 10).

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Weeks 9
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day Week 10-11
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 11-12
Nolvadex 20mg/day