T Nation

First Cycle Questions

I know, another one of those first cycle threads. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and just want some feedback and help with some questions.

First off I’m 48, 6’2" and 225lbs. Approximately 20% body fat. I am a very experienced lifter/weight trainee because I’ve been doing it a very long time, but I guess I would consider myself intermediate. I’ve done a cycle of oral pro-hormones in the past (Super DMZ), but that is it.

My goal is get to around 10%-12% BF, so something around a 15lbs cut if I can hang on to the lean mass I have and maybe add some. That last part is why I’m trying a TRT cycle. Routine bloodwork put my T levels in the “normal” range, but nothing to brag about.

The cycle is based on what I’ve learned here on this site. I’m going for 18 weeks total counting PCT. My goal is to be completely wrapped up before vacation in August.

W1-12: 250mg Test E every 3 days
W1-14: 0.25mg Adex (Anastrozole) EOD, taper to .125mg in W14
W3-14: 250iu HCG every 3 days (taken the day before the Test E so I’m not pinning twice in a day)

PCT
W15: 50mg Clomid 2x daily
W16-18: 25mg Clomid daily

I’m keeping my workout basically the same as it is now, except trying to kick up the intensity and frequency.

So here are the questions.

First, does this cycle seem logical, any potential issues?

I plan to be in a caloric deficit the first 4-5 weeks then gradually increasing until I get to maintenance and I’m hoping that the TRT cycle will make recomp more realistic. Does this sound like a reasonable approach to my goal?

I’ve done 2 injections so far. I have to tell you, it seemed really weird to be doing that, but it went off without an issues. I had watched multiple videos on the proper way to do it. I’ve got all the stuff to do this right. I used a 25G needle for injection and I couldn’t believe how pain free it was. I barely felt the needle and the Test E went in pain free. However, about 24 hours or so later I was a little sore at the injection site. Nothing big, just ever so slightly tender to the touch. Is it normal to have that delayed soreness? Should I expect the same with the HCG injections? I injected in the glutes BTW. Right side first time, left side the next.

So that brings me to my last set of questions. Is it typical to rotate injection sites? What are your thoughts on other sites besides the glutes? It seems like the quads would work and it is much easier to see what you are doing. I’ve also read about injecting in the delts. Is there really any benefit to one site over another or is it just personal preference?

Thank you in advance for your help.

No it does not.
Hea man welcome to the forum. You’ve got a few term mixed up. TRT is for guys who’s balls have quit working and the they need a low dose T injection to stay in a normal T range.
That has nothing to do with cycling. Cycling the recreational uses of Testosterone for the sole purpose of building muscle.
I assume that is where you are.
First time cyclers do their best with about 300mg/wk just to be sure you can handle it. There 's a shit load of bad side effect that aren’t talked about much. You need to know you can deal with them. Once you know then 500mg/wk is in order. Stay away from all the old school orals they are just liver killers. IMO the price you pay is not worth the gain they offer.
Do a good T only cycle eat right and spend some quality time at the gym and the transformation will be everything you had hoped for.
HTH

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Pip post injection pain is normal

As far as I can tell hcg doesn’t cause any pip

That’s too much adex. And that’s way too much Clomid. You don’t need 100mg/d. You’re just asking for trouble at that dose.

I built this cycle off of info from this site, from this…

This is an ideal first cycle for everyone or at least a base to build on:
(NOTE - W X-Y means start of week X to end of week Y)
Cycle Plan
W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week)

This would be an example of a camp number 2 keep it simple cycle. You don’t really need to get more complicated than this but if you want to below are some typical inclusions for a first cycle…

Optional secondary additions
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/d if you want an oral kickstart or just a little something extra thrown in mid cycle when your test is kicking in (seems most lately are going with the latter)
W 1-8 Deca 300mg/w if you want some additional bulking help
W 1-8 Tren Enth 150mg E3D if you want additional strength help
W 6-12 Proviron 25mg 2x/d if you want some help with libido

Optional Ancilliaries
W 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms (itchy/tender nipples) start to show
W 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues (difficulty getting an erection when on tren or deca)
W 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w if you want to prevent your nuts from shrinking and make recovery easier

I’ve seen the 0.25mg Adex EOD all over the place on this site. What do you suggest for dosage?
I’ve also seen lots of reference here an elsewhere for that kind of Clomid dosage. I’ve even seen recommendation that started much high, like this: “300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.” What do you suggest?

Thank you!

How much do you need to keep your e2 at a comfortable level?

I’ve seen people make all sorts of suggestions. My suggestion to you would be to not treat all information with the same amount of weight and legitimacy. It is not created equally.

For pct you could use Nolva 40/40/20/20 and have a perfectly good recovery without the aide effects of Clomid. Nolva at 40mg was found to be as effective in men with hypogonadism as 150mg of Clomid.

Hi just wondering, what does the 40/40/20/20 for the nolvadex mean? 40 mg/day for the first two weeks then 20 the last two?

Thanks

Yes, correct.

That makes sense, but problem is how do you know where to start? It is going to take some time before levels change, so do you just skip the AI until you are a couple weeks into your cycle?

Two schools of thought. Take it from the start, or take it when you need it. Up to you to decide. There’s no right answer without knowing information that we don’t yet have access to.

There has to be some sort of best known method. Obviously if you’ve done a cycle before and know you get symptoms you should start taking the AI from the start. And on the flip-side if you know you tolerate the Test without symptoms then why take something you don’t need?

For a first time user which way do you go? I guess if you look at it from a risk vs. reward standpoint, which has a higher risk? Out of whack E2 levels or AI side effects which I believe is mainly a negative impact on cholesterol.

So thinking this through, Test sides effects would be things like gyno and acne, while the AI can negatively impact cardiovascular health. Based on that you would want to skip the AI until you have unacceptable side effects from the Test. Does that seem to make sense?

Ohmygawd.

Take test 500mg in two injections.

Lift heavy.

Eat 500 over your TDEE.

Get fucking jacked.

if your nipples get puffy an shit, take .25 adex the day after injections.

End of discussion.

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Gotta side with @The_Myth on this one. The formula he laid out is sort of bulletproof.

Now, you’re asking more intellectual questions, which I find enjoyable. So here’s my complicated answer to a complicated question.

I respond well to my AI, and my e2 moves higher than the “average” guy just from my trt. I knew none of this when I started. So my doctor began me on adex from day one. He did so because in his opinion it was best practices to keep e2 lower rather than higher while dialing me in. The side effects of higher e2, in his medical opinion, were more unpleasant for new patients than the side effects of lower e2. It wasn’t about total risk, because 10 weeks of an experiment like this is mostly harmless. Rather it was about getting a patient to find the best course for future successful treatment. That is a completely different ballgame than running a cycle. For you, without knowing anything about what will happen, it is probably easier to detect and treat high e2 than it will be to recover from accidentally crashing it. Remember, estrogen is a powerful anabolic hormone. We need it to build muscle. So during a cycle, all things being equal, higher is more additive than lower would be. You run the small risks, like acne and bloating, neither of which impede muscle growth, by staying high. You run the bigger risk of gyno, which is what scares everyone. If that’s a concern then you can take a small dose of Nolva twice a week. Or you can start your AI at a very low dose and monitor how you feel. But the most logical course of action is to not take anything unless you start to need it. If you’re vigilant about monitoring yourself then you never will run into a situation where you’re too late to adjust things.

Disclaimer: yes, there is probably some small percentage of the population that gets gyno within a week of starting a cycle. These are the outliers. Assume you’re within the fatter part of the population distribution.

So what is your thought on HCG? Would the thought process be similar to the AI, don’t use it unless needed?

I use it, but trt is different. I’m a fan of it because it keeps at least some your normal testicular function going. But it’s a personal choice and there are a dozen different ways to run it.