T Nation

First Cycle, Progress So Far

Pharma
#1

So this is more of a progress report/info for anyone new to ass, things I’ve learnt over the last 4.5 weeks being a first timer. This is my first time posting anywhere, been cruising the forum for a long time, researching etc before this cycle.

25 years old, been training consistently for 3 years, diet on point with a couple average meals a week, macro and micro nutrient targets always hit, 182cm and 103kg on commencement of cycle. Lifts, squat - 170x3, bench 107.5x3, deadlift 210x3.

Purchased 2ml barrels, 21g 1 1/2 inch drawing and 23g 1 1/4 inch for injection, plus swabs etc online, purchased test enanthate, anastrozole, nolvadex from reputable source.

Started 4.5 weeks ago, front loaded 800mg first week, then 400mg week 2 and 3, split over 2 pins (in hind sight I wouldnt have front loaded due to the rapid increase in estrogen, being first cycle it caught me off gaurd).

Everything all fine until 2 weeks in where the bloating, high blood pressure, anxiety etc begun. Knew this was high estrogen so increased my adex from 0.5mg with each pin to eod (started it a bit under a week into the cycle which was much too early, for 3 or so days I experienced the effects of low estrogen, which I would say is a good thing being now I know the difference between the 2). Within a bit over a week all come good and the test kicked about 3.5 weeks, which was mind blowing to say the least especially in the gym. So currently running 500mg test e p/w after all sides subsided and 0.5mg adex eod. Done bloods at 3.5 weeks-
Total T - 1530 ng/dL
Estradiol- 27 pg/mL

So far I’ve gained about 5kg, 2/3 of that come on in the first 2 weeks so mostly water retention.
Lifts are as follows
Squat - 170x3 > 180x4 easy
Bench - 107.5x3 > 110x5
Deadlift - 210x3 pretty poor form > 210x5 easy
This is all from roughly a 5 - 6 week period, from peak of last program to where I am now.

Program wise I squat and bench twice a week, one heavy and one volume, I deadlift heavy once per week and rack pull volume once per week. As well as bent rows seated BB over head press, dips, pull ups and and over accessories for high rep volume work.
I have a loading first half then heavy second half approach to programming. Being on the test the loading PRs haven’t finished yet and still feeling great so I’ll give it one more week before deloading into triples and working back upto PRs over a few weeks.

Essentially that’s it, pretty straight forward but I’ve learnt a hell of a lot in the last month that I would never have learnt by research alone. Few things here a newbie might learn from starting off like myself. Biggest thing I’ve learnt is listen to your body, if something doesnt feel right it probably isnt.

One question I do have that i haven’t been able to find is does anyone get a pretty heavy crash at the end of the day? Feeling amazing during the day then come late afternoon when I’m settling down for bed I start to feel a bit down and out.

Dean

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Micro Dosing Test C
#2

I am a little surprised at your total t value. It seems a bit low for your dosages. I’ve heard of people get to 1500 ng/dl on 250 mg per week.

Maybe you need a little more time for the rest to build up? Maybe a bit underdosed?

#3

Agreed. When I was doing only 400/ wk, was almost 3000 but maybe gear is overdosed lol

#4

I’ve heard a rough estimate of mgs to ng/dl is around 600-1000 ng/dl for every 100 mgs of test.

#5

I was thinking the same thing too getting bloods done but I assumed it was still building in the system. Pretty sure I got the blood test 3 weeks 2 days from first pin. Probably not enough time to peak even with a front load right?
I will be going to get bloods done again in 3 or 4 weeks so will see what totals are then.
I was under the impression that 500mg of test would take you to 2500 ng/dL?

#6

I would not doubt the quality of the gear if I hit 2500 on 500 mg a week.

#7

Will know for sure in a few weeks but that’s good to know. Feeling onset of a bit of water retention and high blood pressure so I’d say it’s still rising. The increase from 400-500mg a week hasn’t had enough time to take effect quite yet so I’d say it hadn’t hit peak on the 400.

#8

If we put broscience aside (no offense meant; we often have nothing else to rely on), and look for hard scientific evidence, we find this.
image
(https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281.6.e1172)
That is, the reality is more like 400-450 ng/dl/100mg. And this defo was some pure pharma-grade stuff they used.

#9

No offense taken. You gave me something to read at work.

The participants were given a GnRH agonist to suppress any natural production. We can probably assume testosterone production is very low on testosterone cycle, but it might be worth 100-200 ng/dl total.

The biggest thing I saw was the study used a 1X per week injection. With Test E or C, we have around a 7 day half life (meaning injecting every 7 days has huge implications on the peaks and troughs of the serum levels). I assume the blood tests were performed the day before injection (the trough). I used a steroid calculator to calculate the difference in trough value of a 1X per week trough and a E3.5D trough, and the difference was around 35% higher with the E3.5D protocol at the trough.

The average of the larger 3 doses results in 4.33 ng/dl for every 1 mg of testosterone injected. If the protocol was changed to E3.5D injections we would expect values closer to 5.85 ng/dl or 585 ng/dl for every 100 mg of testosterone (maybe a little higher than that if not taking a substance to kill any natural production).

Good article! I was a bit high in my estimates (I believe I read those values in a T-nation article on TRT).

Just trying to use a little math and science too!

#10

So about 4 days ago I again felt the signs of high e2 (probably due to the increase from 400-500mg p/w, I’ve also changed the way I inject a tad as before I was leaving almost a unit in the syringe) the usual high BP, water retention and anxiety. Uped my adex doasage to 1mg eod and today starting to feel the sides subsiding. Will give it another week to let the adex level out and get bloods done again, was only going to get the e2 test but might throw in the total T aswell just out if curiosity.

Deadlift 220kg x5 today so was very impressed with that considering it was my 1rm 6 weeks ago.

#11

Funnily enough, I arrived at the same realization simultaneously with you. I mean when I first read the article, I just read it and absorbed the whole thing. Then I revisited it only for the tables/data. It was a few days ago when I quoted it here that I read the whole thing again, and realized the significance of the once/week protocol and its implications on the trough values. So, thanks for doing the math and perfecting the equation. :slight_smile:

#12

No problem. It really shows the importance of injecting more frequently than every week. More frequent injections also lower the peak, and should keep one more steady overall.

#13

Do you have enough nolva to use it on cycle?

I just mention this because 1 mg adex eod is getting to be quite a bit. Estrogen will help build strength and muscle too. As long as you test is high, estrogen being high is not necessarily that bad (unless the sides are really bad).

Nolva will allow the estrogen to be higher, while blocking the bad sides like gyno that high estrogen can produce.

Maybe try a bit of that if you have enough, and go back to the .5 mg of adex eod.

Good progress overall with the strength gains. I am following along on your progress.

#14

I have enough nolva for 5 weeks of pct but I can get more no problems.

It wasnt the gyno that was the issue, I mean nips did get a little itchy from time to time when e2 was heading up. Its more the bloating and high BP, then the anxiety that were the pain. I get pretty uncomfortable when e2 is elevated. I’d only just started feeling good when I got the bloods done last time and estradiol come back at 27pg/dL.

I am 17-18% body fat so that could be partially why I aromitze a bit more heavily then others. When I was only on the 0.5mg twice a week in the beginning, high e2 hit me like a train.

#15

Since you are not running blind, and doing blood work, I think you know what you are doing. On this site it seems like story after story of people crashing E2.

You could try to split the difference with .75 mg dosing.

#16

Yeah I’ve noticed the endless stories of crashed e2, I couldn’t imagine doing this without blood work.

I daresay your right and the sweet spot will be the 0.75mg eod. I’ve got a pill splitter and a decent set of scales there (with all the fillers in the pills it’s actually quite manageable to weigh them). I’ve just taken my 3rd dose of 1mg so I’ll see how I’m feeling today and tomorrow and commence 0.75mg from there give it a week and get the e2 blood test for reference. It’s only $50 for the e2 alone so its definitely worth it to know where your standing.

I notice small differences in how I’m feeling so it’s pretty easy to tell if something is working or not, then get blood work to confirm. That way if I feel that way again i can be pretty sure what it is and act on it before it gets too out of hand. The first time my e2 rose I was a little cautious on the arimidex and it took a fair amount of time (10-12 days) before I started noticing a difference. This time I’ve gone a tad higher for a few days and it’s coming under control quite quickly, dropping to the 0.75mg will probably have me on point with it, with bloods to confirm.

#17

E2 sides are subsiding and starting to feel pretty good.

Squat 182.5kg x5 today and bench 100kg 3x8.
I think it’s time to deload into 1x3s and 3x5s then work back up into PRs over the next 3-4 weeks. Knees and shoulders are getting a tad sore from the massive increase in weight.

#18

So just got blood test results after 10 days on new adex dosage, e2 come back at 18 pg/ml and total T is at 1647 ng/dl. Seems a little low considering its 6 weeks on total and 3 weeks since I upped it to 500mg, I’m guessing a bit underdosed.

Would it be worth taking it up to the 600-650mg to get tt to around the 2000ng/dl? By the looks I can afford to go a little higher with e2 being on the low end so adding enough test to get me to around the 2000 should have me in the sweet spot for e2.

I’ve made considerable size gains, people from work I only see weekly and fortnightly were a little surprised the last week so it might get a little hard to keep on the low for more then another couple weeks.

Having a pretty good time all round so far, especially now e2 is under control. Opinions on upping the dosage would he appreciated!

#19

So upped dose to 600mg, according to the bottle anyway, should have me around what a proper dose of 500mg would be. Currently on 1mg adex eod and it’s working well.

4 weeks left of the cycle, somewhat keen for it to finish and not at the same time. Its been an emotional rollercoaster but loving the size and strength gains as well as feeling great in the gym.

As for strength, bench 120x3, deadlift 240x3 and tomorrow will be attempting a 200x3 high bar squat which in fairly confident I’ll get.
Got a few more weeks of PRs in me so should be interesting where I end the cycle.

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#20

would like to see where your at the next time you have bloods done i had my first labs done and i run 500 a week test and 25mg a day dbol i was at 1323 TT and 86.3 e2 way to high for 500mg of test a week and im leaning towards thinking my gear may be underdosed as well. my test was done at the beginning of my 4th week february 8th just kinda struck me as odd.