T Nation

First Cycle For Serious Lifter


#21

I don’t absolutely have to bridge. As it currently stands, if that’s not recommended typically, then I’m not interested. If that’s only appropriate in some cases, I think that would be clear towards the end of this cycle.

I know it is hard to convey tone through typing, and I really hope that doesn’t come off as wrong. I have all these different names like ostarine, anavar, etc. be thrown at me, and I feel like they do have their place, but I’m not understanding when and where they are appropriate. If they are never appropriate, I’m open to hearing that, sure. I think I will get great results from just Test and then doing a standard PCT. I just don’t have a personal reason to hold back, is all. If doing a more advanced cycle for my first run were a matter of handling the dosing regimine correctly as prescribed, then I think I could handle it. If it is more complicated than that, then I understand why I should really only just do Test this time, and furthermore, forget about SARMs at least for a while if not altogether.


#22

I feel embarrassed to say this a little, but here goes. I am 180 and I b/s/d 365, 525, 555. I haven’t done it in competition, but I certainly have videos and pictures. I have high hopes for this cycle. Maybe I need to hear some of the “less friendly” responses to this to get my mind right. The people around me, while I love them to death, I don’t think are in a position to give me advice, unfortunately. Their advice appears to be shit.


#23

Are those people also selling you the gear that you are using on this cycle?

I would typically suggest 400mg every week for a first cycle, but I don’t have quite the experience that others on this board. I have enjoyed taking just enough to help me get to that next level, and ramping on subsequent cycles, rather than diving into an expert cycle with no place to go after that.

I can tell you anecdotal that Ostarine will shut you down. It’s a waste of money on cycle, and will interfere with your PCT. Plus, we don’t really know what the f*ck it does to your body over time. Against my better judgement, I took it to “bridge” into my current cycle, and as a consequence, I feel like I had a low T condition for the first week.


#24

I would as in myself, I would do a total of four weeks of clomid. If you only have so many in the packet then do 50mgs the first week then three of 25mgs per day. However if you are going to get Nolvadex anyways then go with your original plan but add a week or two of Nolvadex at 20-10mgs per day. Back when I started learning about all of this I came across a digest of a study. Basically the group of men given Nolvadex continually had increasing testosterone levels all the way to three months of usage. I don’t know if these guys were post cycle, low test, regular guys or old guys. But the study showed that their levels continued to rise. I wouldn’t take Nolvadex for three months but since it’s your first cycle I remember how you want to be extremely thorough with everything. So either way I would at least have four weeks of SERM therapy for PCT and five or six weeks won’t hurt. For clarification running the Nolvadex at 20mgs per day out to six weeks is probably too high of a dosage so week five or so drop down to 10mgs. You could even do EOD at 10mgs on week six of your PCT and you would definitely be covered in regard to gyno unless you are just super sensitive to estrogen. In other words if you go past the standard four weeks of SERM therapy then five weeks is “covering your ass just in case” and six weeks is “I am new to this so I am careful and a light dose won’t necessarily hurt me.”

As far as relying on your blood work to discern if you need a few weeks of Nolvadex. All PCT does is jump start your body producing it’s own testosterone. Yes after PCT you should get blood work to make sure you are producing test but it’s going to be low. It takes months for that stuff to get back up and equalize. So no matter what that post PCT blood work is probably going to scare the shit out of you. As long as it isn’t zero or way down in the low low test range then you are on your way to a proper recovery. Remember like I said this drugs hangover lasts months.

Anavar. Really honestly for what it does and what it costs and the risks of getting bs anavar it really only has one for sure place in a cycle. We use it to break through a strength plateau. Everything else it does can be gotten for a better price with less risk of getting ripped off threw other compounds.
Now if you are a fitness model or going on stage for a bodybuilding show then that’s different. It helps a lot of guys get this “tight skin” look. As far as my exploration has gotten me I have not found that skin tightening quality with anything else.
It will help you gain a few quality pounds but for the price it is just not worth it to use it for gaining, in my opinion. And that’s provided you get anavar at the labeled dosage not winstrol or winstrol mixed with dianabol.

If you are looking to bridge with something not illegal then look into peptides. I myself was looking into this a while back for my next phase of development but decided I needed to go with home brewing first to get the costs down. There are a lot of interesting peptides out there. There are some peptides that have been used at the pro level since the 80s. I think some of them can mess with your insulin so read up. I didn’t get that far.

Admittedly I am not up on SARMS but from what I gather their place is basically 'almost like steroids, not illegal, still suppressive so you still need illegal PCT, and they are or can be just as harsh as oral steroids." If you still have to break the law to get a proper PCT from your suppressive steroid alternative then why not just use steroids since you can inject them and not have to deal with harsh orals? All that said I did use prohormones way back when you could buy them at the vitamin shacks.

You are newer to this world so I will point out something for you that I wish someone had pointed out to me. Any website with a link to buy something is getting paid in some way to say X product works and is worth the money. I bet just about every site that say SARMs are worth it has a link to a retailer. If you search some more you will find the sites that say yes they are suppressive, yes they are harsh, they do work but not they way they are advertised and I am willing to bet those sites do not have links to buy SARMs. Unless they have a new special SARM they say is the best ever.
What I am getting at is as you learn more about all of this you will find sites like this that don’t sell anything and do not have a way for someone to privately message you on how to buy stuff. These sites are for information only. You will probably get a more wholesome and honest account at sites like this. But I still advise you to verify everything for yourself because you are the one who has to live with the aftermath of your choices. Don’t worry you steroid bs detector will develope soon enough, until then keep it simple and safe as possible.

One last thing. You have not mentioned any Aromatase Inhibitor or AI. The three main ones are arimidex aromasin and femara. Go read up on how they can keep your body from turning that 600mgs of test into estrogen and decide if you want want to risk not having some in hand in case you have estrogen issues on cycle.
Really you will probably be ok and if you are just worried about gyno then you can cover yourself with getting some extra Nolvadex for on cycle support. I myself can not run a cycle of wet compounds without some AI. That estrogen kills my libido not to mention the water retention.


#25

EDIT: my original reply was actually intended for @now_i_care

@tb40 thank you for your help. indeed, it will be the same people that I will be getting the gear from. Now that I think about it, I’m particulary turned off about getting SARMs or Anavar from them, as I’m certain they have no clue what it is if it is really that hard to get the real stuff.

These guys mean well, they are my friends for many years, but they are mere amateurs. They are my age but started using gear long ago, so I guess that tells us something. I’m almost 100% that they can get real Test though. They’ve had enough bloodwork and such done to prove at least that is real.

I guess my hang-up about doing just Test is that I’ve blown past these guys naturally. One of them is whatever about the gym and isn’t “athletically designed,” but the other one was so much bigger and stronger than me when we were much younger (almost 10 years ago! hes a few years older than me). He was juiced then, but he hasn’t stopped juicing since, and yet he’s a shell of what he was all those years ago. My hang-up was “are these guys getting shit results because they really just aren’t trying/doing the right thing (as they certainly are not), or have the results been that bad because doing just Test kinda sucks and they can’t get their hands on the good stuff or just can’t put a good cycle together for the life of them?”

I apologize for the streams of consciousness.


#26

Thank you so much for your response.

Anavar: I’m going to head your advice. I’m not cutting or doing a show, and I’m obviously going to break any strength plateau that I may or may not currently have hit anyway, so there is just no reason to risk getting bullshit or messing myself up. It is wise to leave it out of this cycle compared to what the benefits seem to be.

SARMS: I’m over this already lol

PCT: Could you kindly lay out your protocol? I’m interpreting it as:
Week 1 - (Clomid/Nolva daily) 50/20
Weeks 2 - 4 - (Clomid/Nolva daily) 25/20
(Maybe) Week 5 - Nolva 20mg daily
(Very Maybe) Week 6 - Nolva 20mg EOD

Anti-Est: I’ve never had even a short period in my life where I was even “overweight”, let alone could be called “fat”, and I’ve certainly never had gyno. That being said, I’m not a fitness model. I’ve been between 10 - 14% my entire adult life, average 12% I suppose it could be a little lower tbh. That being said, I can get my hands on Arimidex. Should I take it, and what is the protocol if I do?

Thank you for all of your help man.


#27

If you’re looking for size and strength then test will get you there. After you run your first cycle and see how you handle it, what the results were, and take some time off, you can approach your next cycle with another new compound. Baby steps. I mean, giant, ripped babies. But baby steps nonetheless. It’s all about safety and harm reduction. Yes, you could run a bunch of fun and cool drugs and get insane strength gains in a matter of two months. But you don’t need that just yet. You’re taking the time to get educated before you do anything. That’s good. Think of each cycle as a semester at school. You learn new things, then apply that to the next round.


#28

I’m sure deep down inside I knew I should just take Test. I go to people I trust in person, and they tell me something different than I expect or think makes sense. That’s why I came to this board. Thank you for your perspective. I don’t think you are confirming any bias - I try to be open-minded and consistent, and there is a reason why the advice given here seems sound to me. Thank you. I honestly feel less anxious now. I guess the anxiety was really about the added bullshit.


#29

Can someone please tell me if my cycle is considered a 12 week or a 14 week cycle? I’m actually pinning test for 12 weeks here (sorry if that was obvious).


#30

A 12 week cycle of test e is essentially 14 weeks due to the enanthate Ester that will keep your levels elevated for a couple weeks after last pin. This is why pct starts 2 weeks after last pin. So altho we call it a 12 week cycle it’s really 14 weeks of being “on”


#31

thank you. so is this too long for my first run or am I still in good territory?


#32

A 12 week cycle is what people consider the sweet spot. Youl see some people who run 14-16 or 8-10 but you should be able to get what you want out of a 12


#33

thanks you!


#34

Alright for PCT couple options
This is basically your original PCT with a fourth week of Nolvadex added, I don’t know how many tablets are in your packets.
Clomid at 100 per day weeks 1 and 2
Clomid at 50 per day week 3
Nolvadex at 20 per day week 4

Or

Nolvadex and clomid
Nolvadex at 20 clomid at 50 weeks 1 and 2
Weeks 3 and 4 Nolvadex at 10 clomid at 25

Or

Nolvadex only
40 mgs per day weeks 1 and 2
20 mgs per day weeks 3 and 4

Now if you are wanting weeks five it doesn’t hurt, you can add Nolvadex at 10mgs per day for week five. Then if you want to for week six you can do 10mgs every other day. You could even just do week five at 10mgs every other day then stop.

It’s been a while since I ran a PCT I am human so I do forget but I am fairly certain those are good protocol and dosages most guys use. Save the first one since you are switching from clomid to Nolvadex on week four and switching is not something you see covered regularly but you should be okay doing it. Basically from what I remember you double dose the first two weeks then single dose the weeks 3 and 4. When you use both Nolvadex and clomid at the same time you single dose each week 1 and 2 then half dose each (somewhat equalling a total of one dose) for weeks 3-4. However there plenty of guys that say that is using too much.

Hopefully someone who still PCTs and is up on the current protocol will chime in.

As far as your friends and what they get and use. Test is rarely faked however it is commonly underdosed. Lots of UGLs come out with good strong well dosed products, if not over dosed products, to get a good name. Then over time they lower the dosage to make more money.

The other possibility with your friend that is a shell of what he use to be is he could just be half assing his effort. I remember those first few cycles I was pumped and hit the ground running at 100mph. Lots of guys do. But then that gas let’s up. They don’t stop going to the gym or even stop cycling but they are putting in less effort. They don’t eat as well as they use too or sleep right.

The other possibility is he never stopped taking cycle level dosages. Even the pros that take ridiculous dosages take some time to lower the dose and cruise. You have too. You can’t keep making your body grow at break neck speeds or shit breaks. You have to take some time to ease up a bit, let the tendons develop. Get to where your new weight range isn’t requiring your full effort. If you stay at cycle level dosages your body adapts, it gets use to it, it no longer is stimulated at that dose, and you stop growing. Not to mention the other health risks of staying at cycle level dosages.

If you look around this site there is a guy named flip collar. He is trying to compete at the pro level of bodybuilding. He just made a thread about how his shows this year are landing in a manner where he doesn’t get an off season and even he (a pro level guy) is planning on coming down from cycle level of dosages for 4-6 weeks in-between the busiest parts of his year.

Chances are your friend fell victom to what so many do, he never wanted the on cycle feeling to go away so he stayed at cycle level dosages.
Dont worry it’s good for you to realize this stuff going in so you know you have to check yourself.
All you have to do is be smart and put long term health (in regards to AAS usage) at the top of your priorities.

Trust me and so many others when I say this, testosterone is very powerful and really if used properly it can cover about 90% of what everyone wants in regards to phsique. It’s just some other stuff can get you to certain things a little quicker.


#35

Thank you for your response. As far as PCT, I just want to know why you recommend 100mg of clomid for the first 2 weeks if I do the clomid only route. Obviously I’m a newb, but I feel like I’ve seen it recommended not to go past 50mg elsewhere. For 2 weeks, though, I’m sure it really doesn’t matter.

As far as my friend, I think that’s really what he did. He did a half-assed PCT a couple of times when we were first hanging out, but then he always was off for short periods of time. At some point I’m pretty sure he decided not to come off. The thing is I don’t think he “blasts” too often. It’s more like he’s always cruising, but he thinks he’s blasting… or something. He doesn’t have TRT either, he gets all his stuff from the street, yet it’s been years now… Anyway, I do trust that he can get Test, but the underdosed possibility is why I plan to do 600mg/week. That’s merely the by dosage listed on the label.


#36

This x1,000


#37

acknowledged


#38

The clomid dosage, like I said I am going from memory and there could be more current stuff out there. The basic concept of what I remember is double dose the first two weeks then single dose the last two weeks equalling four weeks for common practices.
When you mix clomid and Nolvadex at the same time then one dose of each equals 1 clomid plus 1 Nolvadex getting 2 doses or double dose.

I know they tend to say 100 mgs of clomid is high and it is a high dose but clomid is not as good of a binder as Nolvadex thus the higher doses. Those first two weeks, really the first week of PCT you will basically have no appreciable amount of test and you will have some estrogen. Even with the best AI dose you will have more estrogen than test for the majority of guys. That is the perfect petri dish to grow man boobs and all sorts of other things. Again I agree 100mgs of clomid is high, I myself react to clomid I act like a pregnant chic.
If you are worried about the 100mgs of clomid then do the protocol where you take clomid and Nolvadex at the same time. And like I said Nolvadex is a better stronger binder to certain tissues we like to protect aka the tissues that turn into bitch tits.


#39

well, let me ask it like this. you’ve seen my PCT protocol. Do I even need to rethink what I currently have or will I survive? I would add in the Nolva if rethinking is necessary. my bad, but, we’ve seen that im not actually competent to make a decision regarding the nuances of these drugs like that.


#40

I really am not the one to ask about PCT. I have been blasting and cruising for a bit.

However this is what I know. As stated clomid is not as strong of a binder as Nolvadex. Some guys do react to clomid, vision issues at night and emotional sides. I get the emotional sides. A lot of guys tend to go with Nolvadex more and more because of the things I listed yet clomid is still around. It is still a go to for PCT. It’s like dbol was the first AAS specifically developed for performance enhancement and they have developed a lot of stronger stuff since it first came out. Yet dbol is still around because it works.

I use to write out this theroy I had about clomid and that somehow with all the parroting online someone a while back got it confused with HCG. I use to see clomid write ups talking about how it stimulated FSH and LH release, it actually could do this but when I look now I don’t find that written. As far as I can recall I have never seen a write up about Nolvadex saying it stimulates FSH and or LH release. I forget why I use to think someone confused clomid with HCG other than the whole FSH and LH thing, HCG is basically a synthetic version of FSH or LH I forget which one. I don’t think clomid was originally developed solely as a SERM. One of it’s official uses is with fertility issues but that could be an off label use that they discovered. And just so I say it clearly, the release of FSH and LH is what we are trying to do in PCT so ultimately any SERM is taken to get that job done to get the loop back up and running.

I know went off the path with your question I just wanted to let you know where this next bit of guidance comes from.

You are new to this world. You are going to have to play with what works the best for you. What I did for my first PCT was have enough clomid and Nolvadex for PCT with just one of them. I started with clomid and at first I just thought the emotional sides effects we’re part of PCT but then I remembered some guys react to clomid. I switched to Nolvadex and didn’t have the issues.

When I had placed my first order I got Nolvadex because the source had a ridiculous price on the clomid. I then found another source while early in my cycle and it’s clomid was decently priced so I got it. I still had that FSH and LH stuff in my head so I thought clomid did something Nolvadex didn’t. I honestly do not know if clomid does something Nolvadex does not. What I do know is Nolvadex only PCT has worked for me and many others.

I give this advice a lot, your wallet is going to help you make decisions more than you want.

If you can swing it, since this is your first cycle and you want to go with clomid then just get Nolvadex too. Chances are you will do another cycle. Do one PCT with clomid then one with Nolvadex and see if one seems to go better than the other.

Clomid has more side effect risks but it’s still around because it works.

Hopefully someone with more text book knowledge than myself will chime in and clear some of this up. Even though I blast and cruise I would like to know if clomid actually stimulates FSH and LH release or if the release is a side effect of taking it. Same question for Nolvadex.