T Nation

First Cycle Double Checking


#1

Hello people, I’ve been reading this forum for a while and I want to thank everyone for the knowledge you have helped me acquire.

I have decided it’s time for me to start my first cycle. Although I have done, what I consider serious recearch, I would like to post my cycle plans for you to criticise and correct me if something is wrong.

Without further delay this is what I plan on doing:

Week 1-12: Test Enth. 500mg/week
Week 1-6: Dbol 30mg/day
Week 8-12: Proviron 50mg/day (not sure on that)
Week 1-13: Arimidex 0.25mg/every other day
Week 14: Arimidex 0.125mg/every other day

PCT:
Week 15: Nolvadex 20mg/2xday
Week 16-18: Nolvadex 20mg/day

So this is what I understand to be a good novice cycle. I am really not sure on the Proviron so I owuld like to read your opinions on that.

Thanks for any help in advance


#2

40mg nolvadex does not make sense. Please see:


#3

[quote]KSman wrote:
40mg nolvadex does not make sense. Please see:


[/quote]

Thank you for your reply KSman.

So if I understand correctly my PCT changed to

Week 15-17: Nolvadex 20mg EOD
Week 18: Nolvadex 10mg EOD

Is better?
I assume the rest of my planned cycle looks ok?


#4

A bit better. But consider using low dose Nolvadex all through your cycle or hCG.
With TRT/Gear LH/FSH are shut down within a day or two.
There is no need to shut your testes down then attempt to recover form and function later.

That amount of Arimidex will not control that amount of T. Your anastrozole dose would be appropriate for 100mg/week TRT.
Anastrozole is a competitive drug. The higher your T levels, the more you need. Try 0.5mg ED, [3.5mg/week] that will get most of the job done, but perhaps a bit more would be optimal. But you are not doing lab work to know.
E2=22pg/ml would be a good target.
Also, a few guys, not rare, are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the expected doses. No way to know in advance.

Recommended E2 level will optimize libido and promote fat loss in midsection that would not be possible with elevated E2 levels. Mood will be less emotional and more analytical.


#5

[quote]KSman wrote:
A bit better. But consider using low dose Nolvadex all through your cycle or hCG.
With TRT/Gear LH/FSH are shut down within a day or two.
There is no need to shut your testes down then attempt to recover form and function later.

That amount of Arimidex will not control that amount of T. Your anastrozole dose would be appropriate for 100mg/week TRT.
Anastrozole is a competitive drug. The higher your T levels, the more you need. Try 0.5mg ED, [3.5mg/week] that will get most of the job done, but perhaps a bit more would be optimal. But you are not doing lab work to know.
E2=22pg/ml would be a good target.
Also, a few guys, not rare, are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the expected doses. No way to know in advance.

Recommended E2 level will optimize libido and promote fat loss in midsection that would not be possible with elevated E2 levels. Mood will be less emotional and more analytical. [/quote]

Thank you again ksman you are being really helpful.

So if I understand correctly if I up the Arimidex dosage to 0.5mg every day I dont need to use nolva throughout the cycle but only on the PCT the way I changed it after you corrected me.

Sorry if it seems stupid but I want to be sure that my cycle and pct are as good as possible


#6

[quote]KSman wrote:
A bit better. But consider using low dose Nolvadex all through your cycle or hCG.
With TRT/Gear LH/FSH are shut down within a day or two.
There is no need to shut your testes down then attempt to recover form and function later.

That amount of Arimidex will not control that amount of T. Your anastrozole dose would be appropriate for 100mg/week TRT.
Anastrozole is a competitive drug. The higher your T levels, the more you need. Try 0.5mg ED, [3.5mg/week] that will get most of the job done, but perhaps a bit more would be optimal. But you are not doing lab work to know.
E2=22pg/ml would be a good target.
Also, a few guys, not rare, are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the expected doses. No way to know in advance.

Recommended E2 level will optimize libido and promote fat loss in midsection that would not be possible with elevated E2 levels. Mood will be less emotional and more analytical. [/quote]

KSman, what data have you seen that shows a SERM will maintain LH/FSH on cycle?


#7

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]KSman wrote:
A bit better. But consider using low dose Nolvadex all through your cycle or hCG.
With TRT/Gear LH/FSH are shut down within a day or two.
There is no need to shut your testes down then attempt to recover form and function later.

That amount of Arimidex will not control that amount of T. Your anastrozole dose would be appropriate for 100mg/week TRT.
Anastrozole is a competitive drug. The higher your T levels, the more you need. Try 0.5mg ED, [3.5mg/week] that will get most of the job done, but perhaps a bit more would be optimal. But you are not doing lab work to know.
E2=22pg/ml would be a good target.
Also, a few guys, not rare, are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the expected doses. No way to know in advance.

Recommended E2 level will optimize libido and promote fat loss in midsection that would not be possible with elevated E2 levels. Mood will be less emotional and more analytical. [/quote]

KSman, what data have you seen that shows a SERM will maintain LH/FSH on cycle?[/quote]

interesting discussion about that from years ago:


#8

The more I read into this the more confusing it gets. Upon further reading though I was thinking of changing my cycle and PCT to this:

Week 1-12: Test Enth. 500mg/week
Week 1-6: Dbol 30mg/day
Week 8-12: Proviron 50mg/day (not sure on that)
Week 1-14: Arimidex 0.5mg/every other day

PCT:
Week 15-19: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Week 20: Nolvadex 10mg/day

Does this seem better? Any other suggestions/corrections?

Thank you in advance


#9

That should work.

SERM’s do raise LH/FSH. Hundreds of references exist for this.


#10

[quote]KSman wrote:
That should work.

SERM’s do raise LH/FSH. Hundreds of references exist for this.[/quote]

SERMs raise LH and FSH in guys not taking AAS…

how many studies when one is using AAS concurrently that shows this works?


#11

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]KSman wrote:
That should work.

SERM’s do raise LH/FSH. Hundreds of references exist for this.[/quote]

SERMs raise LH and FSH in guys not taking AAS…

how many studies when one is using AAS concurrently that shows this works?
[/quote]

I see this in guys on TRT and TRT T dosing very easily shuts down the HPTA.
Yes, T levels in most TRT guys are comparable to young nature males.

The absence of decent lab work in steroid forums does not allow for the evidence that you would like to see. Why don’t you get someone on cycle get LH/FSH tested in Clomid or Nolvadex and get numbers? You don’t need a baseline as we know that on TRT or gear LH/FSH–>zero. The test subject should be younger and not showing evidence of hypogonadism when off cycle. We need to exclude cases of secondary hypogonadism. Would be interesting to get a first cycle subject and a baseline pre-cycle LH/FSH.

Your doubts seem to be centered around the fact that serum levels of T on cycle are a lot higher than natural and TRT levels. I understand what you are thinking about. We also have TRT guys who have been put on very high SERM dosing by various idiot doctors. So take that case, they have very high estrogen levels. By your thinking the estrogen levels would have limited the effects of the SERM. But there does not seem to be any such effect. - Another thing to think about.

Maybe SERMs are a lot more effective than you think.


#12

[quote]KSman wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]KSman wrote:
That should work.

SERM’s do raise LH/FSH. Hundreds of references exist for this.[/quote]

SERMs raise LH and FSH in guys not taking AAS…

how many studies when one is using AAS concurrently that shows this works?
[/quote]

I see this in guys on TRT and TRT T dosing very easily shuts down the HPTA.
Yes, T levels in most TRT guys are comparable to young nature males.

The absence of decent lab work in steroid forums does not allow for the evidence that you would like to see. Why don’t you get someone on cycle get LH/FSH tested in Clomid or Nolvadex and get numbers? You don’t need a baseline as we know that on TRT or gear LH/FSH–>zero. The test subject should be younger and not showing evidence of hypogonadism when off cycle. We need to exclude cases of secondary hypogonadism. Would be interesting to get a first cycle subject and a baseline pre-cycle LH/FSH.

Your doubts seem to be centered around the fact that serum levels of T on cycle are a lot higher than natural and TRT levels. I understand what you are thinking about. We also have TRT guys who have been put on very high SERM dosing by various idiot doctors. So take that case, they have very high estrogen levels. By your thinking the estrogen levels would have limited the effects of the SERM. But there does not seem to be any such effect. - Another thing to think about.

Maybe SERMs are a lot more effective than you think.[/quote]

“maybe” is not a very good answer…


#13

OLD SCHOOL BROSCIENCE WARNING

In days gone by before hCG came along, olde tyme bodybuilders used clomid at 50mg eod to maintain testicular fullness.

Wouldn’t the fact that clomid keeps the boys in the barracks full size be indicative of them still producing LH?


#14

[quote]Yogi wrote:
OLD SCHOOL BROSCIENCE WARNING

In days gone by before hCG came along, olde tyme bodybuilders used clomid at 50mg eod to maintain testicular fullness.

Wouldn’t the fact that clomid keeps the boys in the barracks full size be indicative of them still producing LH?[/quote]

i think the real question is whether or not it really worked…

if it did, then they wouldn’t need PCT.


#15

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
OLD SCHOOL BROSCIENCE WARNING

In days gone by before hCG came along, olde tyme bodybuilders used clomid at 50mg eod to maintain testicular fullness.

Wouldn’t the fact that clomid keeps the boys in the barracks full size be indicative of them still producing LH?[/quote]

i think the real question is whether or not it really worked…

if it did, then they wouldn’t need PCT. [/quote]

but isn’t LH just one piece of the puzzle? Like clomid on cycle keeps a little LH humming along, but you still need PCT for all the other shit that happens in PCT, no?