T Nation

First Cycle, Critique Please

I have been looking into using some gear for awhile now i have read and reread all of the articles I can find and think I have enough of an idea to post my cycle and see what everyone thinks.

First off stats
6’4" 300lbs bodyfat: too high prob 18%-20% 23 years old.
Training for 5 years, the last 14 months what I would call intelligently.

My main focus for this cycle is to lean out and lose some bodyfat while maintaining LBM.

8 weeks
Tren 500mg/wk
winny 50 mg/day

I am thinking I am going to use arimidex .5mg/day
clomid 50 mg/day during and 3 weeks post
but I am not sure if this is enough or too much on the anti-e and Aromatase inhibitor couldn’t find as much info on that but most stuff seems to say I won’t need anything to taper in my T levels due to the 8 week length.
I may be overdoing it with the aux drugs but I am trying to make sure I don’t get any visits from the estrogen fairy. Any help would be really appreciated P22, Mikekatz, massnutrition, or anyone else feel free to tell me any stupid mistakes I made or if you think another stack would do a better job. Thanks in advance BiggieBen

I would say that you are on the right track for a decent cycle. I would consider adding some test as it is not very expensive and will really kick your cycle up a notch.

In my mind, clomid and arimidex at the same time will be overkill. Save your clomid for PCT. 3-4 weeks of therapy once you’ve cleared your cycle should be sufficient. If you have access to it, i would recommend letrozole over arimidex, as it is stronger and does not exhibit the same negative influence on cholesterol that arimidex does.

Good luck
JP

Arimidex, will not help your postcycle recovery. Use clomid. - the drugs you are currently choosing to run, do not aromatise to estrogen anyway, so using this many anti-e’s is a moot point.

As for putting test in your cycle, If you can get a hold of proviron, and run it at 60mg per day, that would be my choice, as it will provide the dht of test withouth the bloat, estrogen aromatisation.

BigBen, the only thing that worries me about you is that you MAY be looking for the easy way to lose wt. Believe me, while trying to lose BF on AAS it is very conceivable to lose 3-4lbs. of fat/wk. and still maintain all your lbm. just as long as protein is kept up and you’re in a hypocaloric state. I don’t know man, w/ your bodyfat as high as it is, you SHOULD be able to get down to 10-12%BF just by paying strict attention to your diet and implementing a small amount of cardio. You said your training intelligently now, so you might as well eat intelligently.
If it were me, and getting shredded was my objective, then I’d diet naturally down to 10-12%BF AND THEN run the cycle you have outlined to get you down to 4-5%. This is probably not what you want to hear but is the logical approach to take.
Re:anti-e’s, I’d run 20mg nolvadex throughout and have some letrozole on hand. The nolvadex actually has a better chance at warding off any gyno that may flare up due to progesterone or prolactin…So save the clomid for post cycle. And you may want to consider incorporating some HCG as tren is know to be INCREDIBLY suppressive. Good luck and pm me w/ any further q’s.

MK

I should probly state that for a long time i was not that interested in leaning out, not that it wasn’t an issue but it was not on my mind that much. I was training for Football for about 7 months and the entire time I was trying to keep every bit of mass I could thats why I have not droppped as much fatmass as I could have if I had run different programs or eating habits. now that football is no longer an issue, read recurring neck injury (does not effect lifting trust me have talked to many doctors). I am looking to lose some BF and get a little more shredded. this is why the running of this cycle. So from what I understand I do not need to not run an anti aromatase for the duration but only run the clomid PCT to get my T levels back up, and maybe the HCG(how much? mg/day or mg/wk)to get everything going normal again. would it hurt to run the clomid or nolvadex during or would it just be superfluous? Thanks for the info so far I am taking the information to heart and checking what I can get to change the cycle to incorpereate some ideas. Thanks guys and keep any more insights and ideas coming.

BiggieBen, I do not agree with MikeKatz (sorry bro) in his assumptions. Obviously you are not dieting for a show, so I don’t understand why you would want to diet down to 4% bodyfat. It is clear to me that I am sure you would be quite happy with actually 12% body fat. Steroids are tools for helping you achieve this much quicker. Tren in fact will aid your fat loss and speed it up considerably. MK is right in his assertion though that you must use a high protein, low carb, and fat diet. Use Flax seed oil or something simmilar to get your EFA’s. Eat lots of greens to help keep a balanced diet. Allow yourself one cheat meal every 5 days or so, to help keep your sanity and shock your metabolism. Other than that I prescribe a ton of cardio as well, done preferable in the morning on an empty stomach. Steroids will help stop muscle catabolism, however it is my experience that you need more AAS when dieting to keep your muscle than you need when bulking to gain more muscle.

And another thing: Using too much testosterone will not help. It is my experience that a big part of success in dieting is due to motivation brought on by the progress you are seeing. Using steriods that are going to cause excess water retention of any kind, will mask the results you are getting, taking away some of that motivation. Now granted a large part of water rention while on AAS is due to eating too much carbohydrates, so water retention should be much less if you stick to your diet, I still recommend you either use proviron or masteron or nothing else at all except possibly an HCG protocol. Tren, Masteron or Proviron, and Winstrol is my Competition cycle.

Prisoner 22,
thanks alot, I really appreciate the help. I will be pretty much busting my ass for the next two months to get everything in order before I go for the cycle. and your right 12% would be great around there is actually my goal. so as it stands now I am thinking this is what I’ll run.
8 weeks
Tren 500mg/wk
winny 50 mg/day
proviron ~60mg/day
arimadex .5mg/day
I know I prob wont need the arimadex but I feel better to be safe
weeks 9-12
Clomid 50 mg/day

Diet is going to be very high in lean protien chicken and other lean meats with green veggies for meals. healthy fat was going to be mostly from grape seed oil and EFA caps. carbs were going to be at a minimum because no matter the total cal’s I don’t seem to be able to lose without dropping the carbs.

Since I am going to add in the Proviron is it a good idea to up the arimadex or is this dosage still more then sufficient to take care of the aromatize issue, if there even is one? and are there any side effects to taking the arimidex when it is not too nescessary?
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help out. BiggieBen

Actually bro, before the developement of clomid, nolvadex, and the new aromatase inhibitors, proviron was the drug bodybuilders used for antiestrogen. Not only does it bind to sex-hormone-binding-globulin more advidly than any other AAS, which frees up the other more active steroids you are taking to bind with the AR, it also, attracts and binds the aromatase enzyme better than any other steroid, yet itself cannot aromatise - hence its anti-E properties.

Also, in addition to this you are taking winstrol, which down-regulates the ER. It also is able to block progesterone, but to what degree is unknown.

So basically, you don’t need arimidex for this cycle. Arimidex lowers IGF-1 and has negetive effects on your lipid levels, so If you can go without using it, I suggest you do.

P22,
did you learn alot of this during school or have you picked it up from just doing your own research, cuz you def seem to know your $hit.
I’m gonna knock out the arimidex but the Clomid should stay PCT correct, I know I am asking alot of ?'s but I want to make sure I fully understand how and why I am running this. I now understand why the arimidex would not be needed but I would think the clomid would still be helpful to get my T levels back up to normal.

Thanks Biggieben

Hey bro, Education certainly helps. My Knowledge of physiology, pharmacology, as well as personal research and experience with aas,plus competing is pretty much what I can contribute my knowledge to.

As far as clomid goes, yes pct with clomid would be helpfull.

P22, since when did having a bf of 4-5% require you to compete? I just took into account the assumption that most bbers would rather be 4-5% than 12%…Maybe that’s just me. I’m still sticking w/ my advice to try and diet as much as possible naturally before taking the plunge. IMO, AAS should only be used as an agent to propel you past a sticking point…and who knows if he’s even attempted to diet naturally(you may surprise yourself BB) And in his post, he only stated that he has been TRAINING correctly for 14months. So if he’s still eating like shit then even AAS won’t help.

MK

miikekatz, your right I have only been training what I would call the correct way for 14 months, I understand where you are coming from on AAS as a cheating block( not the right term but works). I have not totally busted my ass to lean out, but I do have a good idea what i am doing i have leaned out alot from where i was prior to lately. I have moved from being around 360 fat to 300 fit. I understand where you are coming from on the leaning out naturally before using AAS. I don’t have much interest in being down to 4-6% though if I can get to around 10-12% I would be very happy. I probly could get there without the help of AAS, but I would like to do it faster than i could naturally. Thanks for putting that out there though because I think there are definate times when people are using AAS as a cheating block. not busting your chops I really apprecieate the help and the information. I am def taking everything to heart. Thanks BiggieBen

Let me just say this. Steroids are not magic pills. You must train just as hard as you would if you were natural, and eat just as well. The only difference is in the results you achieve.

P22,
What do you think of the research touting vitamin B-6(pyridoxine) as an effective prolactin blocker? The claim in 300 mg IV or 600 mg orally prevent tren gyno.

I’ve also seen articles of it being used to stop prolactemia.

Side note. Adding more than a 200 mg a week of test for me would cause bloat and increased appetite. I would stick with the tren/winny.

I am not familiar with that research, could you pm me your source?

[quote]PAP wrote:
P22,
What do you think of the research touting vitamin B-6(pyridoxine) as an effective prolactin blocker? The claim is 300 mg IV or 600 mg orally prevents tren gyno.

I’ve also seen articles of it being used to stop prolactemia.

Side note. Adding more than a 200 mg a week of test for me would cause bloat and increased appetite. I would stick with the tren/winny. [/quote]

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Let me just say this. Steroids are not magic pills. You must train just as hard as you would if you were natural, and eat just as well. The only difference is in the results you achieve.[/quote]

100% agree w/ you…I wish more people would realize that taking steroids isn’t “cheating” and it’s really just a means to an end;only you get there a little quicker. It’s like columbus’ voyage to america in 1492. He took a route that the other pioneers didn’t and he wound up reaping tremendous REWARDS because of it…Although by taking that “different route” he ran the RISK of getting lost at sea. The same thinking process should go through your head before you take the plunge…Do the benefits outweigh the consequences 4 YOU?

Regarding the b-6…I have heard anectdotal reports stating that it warded off the tren gyno, although I have yet to see any documented scientific research to support this…I’ll see what I can find.

MK

I could find nothing but articles touting the importance of B6 for lactating mothers. I have had problems w/ tren-induced gyno and B6 seemed to help a bit (but this could have been placebo effect).
Running Arimidex throughout solved the issue for me.
Even though Tren does not aromatize, reducing my own Estrogen levels probably removed one of the gyno-causing factors (Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin), which seemed to be enough in my case.

Interesting…bromocriptine is supposed to be pretty effective at stopping progesterone-induced gyno, but the best thing out there is the ru-486 birth control pill.

MK

[quote]amarus wrote:

Regarding the b-6…I have heard anectdotal reports stating that it warded off the tren gyno, although I have yet to see any documented scientific research to support this…I’ll see what I can find.

MK

I could find nothing but articles touting the importance of B6 for lactating mothers. I have had problems w/ tren-induced gyno and B6 seemed to help a bit (but this could have been placebo effect).
Running Arimidex throughout solved the issue for me.
Even though Tren does not aromatize, reducing my own Estrogen levels probably removed one of the gyno-causing factors (Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin), which seemed to be enough in my case.[/quote]