T Nation

First Cycle Check


#1

I have been doing research for quite a while about AAS. I have learned a lot so far but still have plenty more to learn. Let me tell a little about myself. I am almost 31, been training off and on for 5 years, but the past 2 years have been consistent(workout 4-6 days per week). My goal is to gain size first and strength should come with that.

6'2"
186 lbs
About 15% bf

The past 1.5 years I have been trying to gain mass. I eat chicken, turkey, lean beef,sweet potatoes, broccoli, natural peanut butter, plus more green vegetables. Also protein shakes and bars. I'm consuming 272 G protein and 340 g carbs daily. I measure and count my food everyday. It's a pain but worth it bc I was at 162 1.5 years ago and it was ALL bc of my diet.

Proposed cycle:
Weeks 1-10-Test "E" (250 mg twice per week(Monday/Thursday)
Weeks 1-4-Dbol (10mg 3x/day)
AI- Aromasin (12.5 mg EOD)-I want to prevent gyno or any estrogen related sides before they occur.

PCT:
Week 11-Aromasin (12.5 mg/day)
Week 12-Nolvadex(20 mg/day), Aromasin (12.5 mg/day)
Week 13-Nolvadex (20 mg/day), Aromasin (12.5 mg/day)
Week 14-Nolvadex (20 mg/day), Aromasin (6.25 mg/day)
Week 15-Nolvadex (20 mg/day), Aromasin (6.25 mg/day)
Week 16-Aromasin (6.25mg/day)
Weeks 17-21-Tribulus

I will have plenty of Nolva on hand in case I have something flare up during the cycle. I will also have plenty of Aromasin if I need to up that during cycle.

Is 12.5 mg EOD a good starting point for Aromasin during the cycle?

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.


#2

Now THAT’S a first cycle proposal! Nice to see someone actually doing their homework.

I wouldn’t increase the asin dose in the weeks before PCT. If anything, I’d lower it. You don’t need to run it during PCT either.

Drop the tribulus, it’s not going to do much of anything. D-Aspartic Acid would be a better choice.

You might want to consider adding hCG 250iu twice or thrice weekly, stopping 4 days before PCT, but it’s not essential.

Other than that, looks pretty solid.


#3

Only adjustment I would make is to dose the aromasin daily, preferably twice a day.


#4

I have to agree with Yogi, that looks very solid. Don’t forget to lift heavy, eat lots of good solid food, and sleep. You should put on a good bit of muscle with this cycle.


#5

[quote]The-German wrote:
Only adjustment I would make is to dose the aromasin daily, preferably twice a day. [/quote]

This myth needs to end. The half life in men would suggest 2x/d dosing, except it’s not the level of aromasin in your blood that matters, it’s the level of estrogen. Aromasin suicidically inhibits the aromatase enzyme, and conversion of t to e stops until your body produces more of the aromatase enzyme. You can dose aromasin twice per week and maintain steady enough levels of estrogen, especially on say a cruise dose of test. More frequent is always better but you will be perfectly fine taking aromasin EOD. It is by far the best AI.


#6

congrats on a decent first cycle write up. This thread just proves that everyone out there isn’t morons and we aren’t dicks to everyone that comes through here, just the lazy idiots.


#7

[quote]joyfull wrote:

[quote]The-German wrote:
Only adjustment I would make is to dose the aromasin daily, preferably twice a day. [/quote]

This myth needs to end. The half life in men would suggest 2x/d dosing, except it’s not the level of aromasin in your blood that matters, it’s the level of estrogen. Aromasin suicidically inhibits the aromatase enzyme, and conversion of t to e stops until your body produces more of the aromatase enzyme. You can dose aromasin twice per week and maintain steady enough levels of estrogen, especially on say a cruise dose of test. More frequent is always better but you will be perfectly fine taking aromasin EOD. It is by far the best AI. [/quote]

That is a highly individual approach. Some people do fine without an AI at all but that isn’t what someone on their first cycle should look toward doing. Someone who is prone to high estrogen(or don’t have a clue yet) should take the safest route for their first cycle and make changes in later cycles to how they respond to an adjustment.


#8

Thank you all for the help. It’s greatly appreciated.

I will drop the Aromasin during PCT. I am going to start with 12.5 mg EOD and see how that goes. Adjust lower or higher if needed.


#9

[quote]Yogi wrote:
Now THAT’S a first cycle proposal! Nice to see someone actually doing their homework.

I wouldn’t increase the asin dose in the weeks before PCT. If anything, I’d lower it. You don’t need to run it during PCT either.

Drop the tribulus, it’s not going to do much of anything. D-Aspartic Acid would be a better choice.

You might want to consider adding hCG 250iu twice or thrice weekly, stopping 4 days before PCT, but it’s not essential.

Other than that, looks pretty solid.[/quote]

I plan on starting my cycle tomorrow. I am going to use hCG weeks 3-10, 250iu twice per week. Should I take my last hCG injection on the same day as the last Test E injection? Or during week 11?


#10

[quote]joyfull wrote:

[quote]The-German wrote:
Only adjustment I would make is to dose the aromasin daily, preferably twice a day. [/quote]

This myth needs to end. The half life in men would suggest 2x/d dosing, except it’s not the level of aromasin in your blood that matters, it’s the level of estrogen. Aromasin suicidically inhibits the aromatase enzyme, and conversion of t to e stops until your body produces more of the aromatase enzyme. You can dose aromasin twice per week and maintain steady enough levels of estrogen, especially on say a cruise dose of test. More frequent is always better but you will be perfectly fine taking aromasin EOD. It is by far the best AI. [/quote]

why do you suggest dosing 2x week?

now i don’t agree with dosing twice a day, but every single bit of data on Aromasin has been for daily dosing, for both men and women.


#11

In short: Compliance. So many guys are too ignorant or too lazy to even take an AI at all. It’s better they take it with their test and HCG twice a week, such as Mon/Thurs as is common, than not at all. But like I said it’s best to take it more frequently e.g. ED or EOD. All the studies use daily dosing because there aren’t many studies, and there’s no reason to unnecessarily change a variable (dosing frequency).

Cycobushmaster we don’t always see eye to eye but I like that you often provide support for what you say. I don’t value the very limited and very flawed experiments as much as you do, and put relatively more value on the accumulated experience of the community of steroid users (since there haven’t even been any studies done on exemestane and exogenous testosterone use). But both have their place.

If you’re willing to say, what’s your background? Medical research? I’m super curious.


#12

plan on starting my cycle tomorrow. I am going to use hCG weeks 3-10, 250iu twice per week. Should I take my last hCG injection on the same day as the last Test E injection? Or during week 11?


#13

[quote]joyfull wrote:
In short: Compliance. So many guys are too ignorant or too lazy to even take an AI at all. It’s better they take it with their test and HCG twice a week, such as Mon/Thurs as is common, than not at all. But like I said it’s best to take it more frequently e.g. ED or EOD. All the studies use daily dosing because there aren’t many studies, and there’s no reason to unnecessarily change a variable (dosing frequency).

Cycobushmaster we don’t always see eye to eye but I like that you often provide support for what you say. I don’t value the very limited and very flawed experiments as much as you do, and put relatively more value on the accumulated experience of the community of steroid users (since there haven’t even been any studies done on exemestane and exogenous testosterone use). But both have their place.

If you’re willing to say, what’s your background? Medical research? I’m super curious.

[/quote]

i have to admit that compliance is a good point.

well, here’s where i have an issue. you might value the opinion of an anonymous person on the internet that may or may not have actual experience with a chemical that might not be legit, but i rarely do. with that being said, if you’re face to face with someone that you actually know, then that is a different situation. however, i don’t want to give people advice on an internet forum without providing data that they can research and trust in, and not just have to count on “bro-science.” i hate that people are so cavalier with medical advice that is rarely correct, and occasionally deadly.

FWIW, my background is not in science or the medical field…


#14

Not to be a dick, good cycle proposal but has anyone looked at those stats? 6’2" 186? at 15% BF? I’m 6’4" and I managed to get from that weight to 225 ish naturally before i got on gear.


#15

^LOL! yeah, i rarely even look at that anymore… good catch!


#16

[quote]joyfull wrote:
I don’t value the very limited and very flawed experiments as much as you do, and put relatively more value on the accumulated experience of the community of steroid users
[/quote]

The “accumulated experience” of steroid users just over 10 years ago was in favour of deca/dbol only cycles with only proviron for PCT.


#17

@cyco yeah ive learned the most on this forum from you and the links you post. most things said on here i take with a grain of salt lol. anyone taking their medical advice from a forum is asking for trouble imo. it’s better than nothing but still it’s the individual’s responsibility to do their own research. that’s a common ethos here which is one thing that keeps me around.

and i don’t mean that i take random forum users and their bro-science seriously. but rather people like Shelby Starnes, who are intelligent and have worked with hundreds of clients on a long term basis, seen their blood work regularly, and how their bodies responded, make adjustments frequently and have a good feel for the cause and effect nature of PEDs. I consider this to be scientific data, even though it will never be published. Compared to many doctors and the protocols they prescribe I would take Shelby’s advice over theirs in a heartbeat.

@dt79 that was never the go to cycle like, say 500mg/wk of Test is today. And even if that protocol was casually accepted, why did that change? Was it because of scientific studies, or because the community realized there are better ways? Again I don’t mean random dipshits that post nonsense on forums, but coaches who work with hundreds of athletes and know their shit cold. It’s scientific data even if it isn’t published in any fancy journal.


#18

^interesting you mention this, as i was just think about some of the “old school” cycles. back in the day, AI’s weren’t even available, so the user had to either a) accept high estrogen or b) use a ton of proviron and nolvadex on cycle, if they went very high with testosterone. now that’s incredibly easy to manage, and actually manage more effectively.

most of the guys i knew that used AAS when i started started off, used test e at 200 mg/wk for 10 weeks, and followed it with nolva or clomid. the advanced guys (or guys that occasionally competed in BB or PL) used test, deca and d-bol, but their total androgens for the cycle were generally under 1,000 mg/wk. in fact, the “gramabol” cycle was legendary for putting on a ton of mass… and all it was, was simply 1,000 mg (a gram) of test a week.

however, with all the designer prohomornes and stuff like that, i’ve seen way more side effects. unfortunately, because it’s OTC, people assume it’s not hormonal…

the increase in “research chemicals” has also changed a lot, as it used to be hard as shit to find a-dex. now there is simply no excuse not to have it available for a cycle…

but anyway, i think some of the old school ideas were that of necessity. nolva was the only thing that actually prevent some of the estrogen side effects, so you had to use it on cycle. now, if someone says to use it, i immediately question if they really use AAS.

i think another thing that changed AAS use was the internet, as well. this information simply was never available (PubMed, etc), and since steroid use is/was part of an underground culture, information was passed by word of mouth, more than anything.


#19

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]joyfull wrote:

[quote]The-German wrote:
Only adjustment I would make is to dose the aromasin daily, preferably twice a day. [/quote]

This myth needs to end. The half life in men would suggest 2x/d dosing, except it’s not the level of aromasin in your blood that matters, it’s the level of estrogen. Aromasin suicidically inhibits the aromatase enzyme, and conversion of t to e stops until your body produces more of the aromatase enzyme. You can dose aromasin twice per week and maintain steady enough levels of estrogen, especially on say a cruise dose of test. More frequent is always better but you will be perfectly fine taking aromasin EOD. It is by far the best AI. [/quote]

why do you suggest dosing 2x week?

now i don’t agree with dosing twice a day, but every single bit of data on Aromasin has been for daily dosing, for both men and women.

[/quote]

Like you said Joy, more frequent is always better. It is ideal but not a necessity. I’m not disagreeing with that, I personally think it’s very easy to pop a pill or squirt some nasty ass aromasin in my mouth twice a day so that’s what I do.


#20

@cyco yeah makes sense all those things played a role (and represent definite progress).

as far as serms instead of ai’s, i found it thought-provoking that shadowpro recommends nolva instead of any ai. and william llewellyn in his book offers serm protocols as being equally as viable as ai’s for managing estrogen. i’m finding that it is a difficult process of trial and error to get the sweet spot on dosing my AIs. i don’t see how anyone could get it right without at least 3 different blood work labs, and by that time you probably want to up the dose and that changes things. also, your body will get more sensitive over time to e.g. aromasin, further complicating things. it’s definitely simpler to just take nolva at 10mg/day or 20/mg a day and be done with it. but there’s still other problems with high estrogen (blood pressure, hepatic adenoma, etc).

@german for sure. i take mine daily and have an alarm set on my phone so i never forget. if you can’t take it daily then you probably shouldn’t be doing steroids but that doesn’t stop people as we see every day on this forum lol. do you notice any differences between daily and 2x daily? there’s no hard data, but looking at the study cyco linked, it would seem that estrogen levels do fluctuate enough at the 12h vs 24h blood samples that it would significantly stabilize estrogen. i do notice a difference between eod and ed at least.