T Nation

First Cycle Advise Needed


#1

Hey Fellas,

So I have visited your site many times but thought I may need to post something as I need a bit of advice. I read through the stickie for newbie cycles and got my cycle plan off there. Some background info:

Been training properly 5 years, was doing rugby and water polo training before that so more cardio and power focused.

1.84m, 24 years old, body fat down to 14%.
I have sorted myself out an eating plan, with one cheat day a week if I have followed it correctly. Been on it for a couple weeks now.
Additionally I came here a couple weeks back and saw your advice to another guy about push pull legs and have been on that workout plan since then. Before than I was doing more 4 day split workouts.

Cycle plan:

Original Cycle Plan
W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/d if you want an oral kickstart or just a little something extra thrown in mid cycle when your test is kicking in (seems most lately are going with the latter)
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week)

PCT Option 1 (SERM PCT)
W 13 Nolva 20mg 2x/d or Clomid 50mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d or Clomid 25mg/d


However a couple things have deviated a bit.

1) My supplier is only getting Adex in this week. But gave me proviron on the cheap. He is a reputable pharmacist with a bit of an affiliation with the IFB this side of the world. He recommended to take Proviron on cycle and use the Adex for PCT, as will maximize my gains. I told him I would ask around before I took it and the guys I spoke to all recommended to go with Proviron on cycle if I can afford it and run Adex after. Not sure what you guys think?

2) The Test E he had was 300mg not 250mg. Precision Works Gear. I know that is more than the cycle prescribes but thought I could either run 300mg twice a week as opposed to every 3 day to dilute it slightly or I could inject 0.8 of a ml so would equal 240mg and run that E3D?

3) I started my cycle last Tuesday and injected Tuesday and again on Friday at 300mg. Only thing is I don't know if the Gear is good or not. The Tuesday injection puffed up the next day, went to the nurse and she said its more tissue damage from using the wrong needle - 21g needle? Took some antiinflams and it went down but I can still feel it in my bum a little bit. The Friday one didn't flare up or go red but it felt thick. Like my bum is still very tender and sensitive to sit. Not sure if its because its a high dosage if that would have anything to do with it or the Gear is bad?

Sorry for all the questions just want to make sure I do this right, its my first cycle.


#2

is this your first cycle? if so, i would hold on to the d-bol and save it for later.

600 mg/wk is fine, vs. 500 mg. you don’t need to do E3D injections… it’s easier to just do twice a week, something like Mon-Thur.

if you got Proviron, it’s not gonna hurt your cycle. but it’s really not gonna enhance it much, other than sex drive and a little help with estrogen control. A-dex is way better at controlling estrogen, and proviron does not replace it. i would run it as you have it laid out in your cycle.

as far as PCT, i’m not a fan of doubling up on SERMs, or high doses, either. you need to allow your body to start producing test on it’s own, but the SERM helps that process out significantly without causing any additional suppression. regardless, until the androgen (test E, in this case) is out of our body, or at least down to low enough levels that that our own HPTA kicks in, real recovery has not occurred.


#3

Cyco pretty much covered everything.

I’d run dbol midway or end of cycle if this is your first cycle just to make sure you have no symptoms to the test. Adex run throughout cycle. Never ran proviron so can’t tell you.

It’ll take some time for the E to kick in so don’t think it’s bunk gear just yet. Just get a blood test and that’ll clear everything up. It’ll hurt and flare up couple times cuz of virgin muscle and your body has no idea what’s being introduced. It should hurt less everytime.

Also I agree on just running one SERM. Either Nolva or Clomid. I ran Nolva my first cycle and it went great, now I’ll be running Clomid to test it out just cuz I have it on hand.


#4

Thanks guys for your replies.

Yeah I have Clomid on hand and Nolva, I won’t run both.

I did Prop about a year back but a short course for 4 weeks, the PIP was crazy but the gains were even better.

I got all my advise from:

Any other NEWBIES out there - READ THAT STICKY!

Okay perfect, so now I am 1 week in, I have been running the DBOL, should I run it for the next week then stop and run it for 2 weeks at the end? From what I understand, you should run it MAX for 4 weeks. I am also taking Milk Thistle daily as a liver protector with it.

I will get the Adex tomorrow and start running it from tomorrow for the entire cycle.
Not sure if I can ask this but…
Is Orlatec a reputable brand? Or axio better for arimadex? OT is cheaper… but dont want to buy shit.

Told my source about the stiffness and pain, he reckons to go try out a nurse to get it injected or inject into the shoulder.
I was using 23g needle to shoot and 21 to draw, with alcohol pads keeping everything clean of course.
He rekons a 22 will shoot better given its quite a thick substance?


#5

Okay so I injected again on Tuesday, got a 22G needle and got my gf to do it as thought maybe I was being too rough.

Quick analysis: Less tissue damage, very little inflammation or reaction.

However it still feels a bit like my prop injection that would just harden within the glutes. Like I can feel a roundish type hardness within my glutes. Not sure if its just my “virgin” muscle getting used to the gear or that its bunk gear.

Not sure If I can post brands here but I am going to anyways:

PGW 300mg/ml will post a pic too.

Any advise?


#6

Sorry I double posted here. Anyone know how to delete? Says access denied.


#7

Generally i think a slower injection is better so 23g needle is fine - Personally i wouldn’t want to go any larger than that. Muscle pain can be increased from being unstable when injecting etc. Everything that you have described sounds normal.

If you are jabbing twice a week i would suggest having 4 injection sites. For my first cycle i did glutes and shoulders.

I would just continue with the dbol for 4-6 weeks as planned.

Your OP said this was a first cycle but you have ran prop before for 4 weeks. If this is the case you must have plenty of experience jabbing?


#8

Hey man, thanks for the reply.

Yeah I used nurses and my girlfriend for the prop injections. I think I did 3-4 injections myself, none of which had a reaction except for the PIP.

That was my biggest fear on prop was the injecting but luckily it was done through my rugby coach so we had access to a nurse through the rugby club. Guess this is my first cycle that I have planned myself would have been the correct way to have stated the situation.


#9

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
is this your first cycle? if so, i would hold on to the d-bol and save it for later.

600 mg/wk is fine, vs. 500 mg. you don’t need to do E3D injections… it’s easier to just do twice a week, something like Mon-Thur.

if you got Proviron, it’s not gonna hurt your cycle. but it’s really not gonna enhance it much, other than sex drive and a little help with estrogen control. A-dex is way better at controlling estrogen, and proviron does not replace it. i would run it as you have it laid out in your cycle.

as far as PCT, i’m not a fan of doubling up on SERMs, or high doses, either. you need to allow your body to start producing test on it’s own, but the SERM helps that process out significantly without causing any additional suppression. regardless, until the androgen (test E, in this case) is out of our body, or at least down to low enough levels that that our own HPTA kicks in, real recovery has not occurred.

[/quote]

x2


#10

Thanks for all your help guys.

I know this is my first cycle. My bulk has come along nicely, muscles looking full but I know a lot is from the dbol and water retention.

I will stop Dbol on Sunday this week, running it effectively for 2 weeks.

I wanted to use it again midway through cycle, but my trainer is recommending Winstrol instead. Not to sure really as I have planned for dbol… Any advise? His reasoning is I look full in the muscles but need to cut for definition…


#11

If you want to use an oral you might as well continue as planned - If you choose to remove the Dbol then i would forget orals for this cycle.

I don’t see the benefit in taking the Dbol out now then adding either that or Winstrol back in later


#12

[quote]pex86 wrote:
If you want to use an oral you might as well continue as planned - If you choose to remove the Dbol then i would forget orals for this cycle.

I don’t see the benefit in taking the Dbol out now then adding either that or Winstrol back in later [/quote]

I don’t understand your reasoning here, can you explain? Why would adding an oral later not be beneficial? It’s increasing the total AAS dose, and introducing a new compound. That will almost certainly increase results.


#13

Based on the fact that he has already started with an oral - If he wants to use one his best option would be to continue with it as is, rather than stop after 2 weeks of use for x weeks to then add one back in again later.


#14

Also taking into consideration that this is a first cycle, OP seems under confidant with self injecting and unsure whether he wants to include an oral or not, i was trying to keep it as simple as possible.

I am not disputing that adding an additional compound later in a given steroid cycle would have benefits in terms of gains.


#15

[quote]pex86 wrote:
Also taking into consideration that this is a first cycle, OP seems under confidant with self injecting and unsure whether he wants to include an oral or not, i was trying to keep it as simple as possible.

I am not disputing that adding an additional compound later in a given steroid cycle would have benefits in terms of gains.[/quote]

I agree on the keep it simple. Changing things up every few weeks is just gonna confuse him.


#16

I could have worded it better - saying ‘benefit’ was misleading. What i really meant was that i don’t think it would be in the OP’s best interest.


#17

adding an oral like dianabol hardly complicates things, just makes for a more enjoyable cycle!


#18

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the replies.

Injecting has been going better now. Changed to a 5ml vial and 22g syringe and been very smooth. Also getting my gf to help takes away me putting too much force.

Regarding the orals I’m keen to stick with dbol as I’ve bought it and it’s what I planned.

The confusion came from previous advice of rather using the dbol to end off the cycle. But either way I don’t mind I’ve bought enough for 4 weeks and have milk thistle for the same amount of time. Breaking it up 2 weeks now and 2 weeks at the end won’t make much of a difference to me per say. Just wanted to know what you guys thought would be best?

One thing though I definitely won’t run it for more than 4 weeks.


#19

jesus, why are you pinning with a 22? Get something smaller


#20

I was using a 23 to shoot that was quite painful. I read up that you should only use between 21-23 for IM injections? So if 23 caused damage and 22 too big then should I try a 21?

"In general for IM (intramuscular) injections you would use a 21 to 23 gauge needle 1 to 1.5 inches long for an adult. "