T Nation

First Cycle Advice


#1

I'm 40 with 20 years of hard natural training, 5 BB shows a few years ago with modest sucess as a middleweight. Currently 5-10 @ 218lbs (not cut, not fat, just soft in the middle(I'm ok with that)). Looking to get real big with little side effects. I WAS planning on Deca 200mg wk to start and go up to 500mg over 12 wks w nolvadex to avoid gyno and hcg pct. Reason is I wanted a real clean cycle w no side effects.

But w/ research here and other places I learned I'd better stack it with a small amount of something more androgenic like Test Cyp at around 100mg and go up to 300mg. Then I learn I should take Avodart to avoid test side effects but Llewellyns book says Avodart is a no no with Deca. So I learn instead take Proscar for hair and Arimidex for gyno. But I learn Armidex eliminates some of the useful benefits of estrogen so instead I should go with Clomid or Nolvadex for gyno.

So now my head is spinning and I'm thinking maybe I should just screw the Deca and go with Test and Avodart w/ either nolvadex or Clomid. What say you experts? looking for max size gains w little side effects (also I'm fortunate enough that money is not an issue.) Please tell me why you recommend what you recommend. Thanks.


#2

Just to throw in my 2 cents...Test only cycles do work of course (i've done one myself) but if you want to put on as much size as possible, stack the test with something. few of mya personal favorites are
test/tren/dbol or
test/eq/dbol
both cycles, when stacked, work together and you get a great synergistic results i.e. more weight...at least in my experience it does.

Also, with all the conflicting arguments going around about which PCT is better blah blah blah...I've learned that if you take Clomid and Nolvadex throughout your entire cycle and post cycle you recover much more quickly than if you just started it at the end of your cycle. I usually throw in a little HCG as well.
This is all from my presonal experience. Hope it helps a bit for ya.


#3

 I am far from being an expert, but I'll take a stab at this.  First off you would do better to frontload the Deca (1000mg the first week, followed by 500mg thereafter).  Some recommend throwing the test in here to prevent Deca dick (to keep the wife happy) with a minimum of 250mg per week.

 Nolvadex will not help with Deca, it could be used for the test, but at 250mg/week it should not be needed.  Keep it on hand just in case.  Save the clomid for PCT.  For Deca induced gyno, some are using B6 at (I believe) 400mg/day.

 If you do decide to go with test only, frontload the same you would with the Deca.  Here I would use the Arimidex as an aromatase inhibitor (to prevent test from converting to estrogen) and use both Nolvadex and Clomid for PCT.  If you are using test cyp, start PCT 2 weeks after your last injection.  The HCG can be used during cycle beginning week 3 at 500 iu/week.

 Wait for the experts to chime in to correct any of my mistakes.

#4

So the test only is out. So if I want to have an effective cycle without significant side effects maybe the deca test stack wouldn't be a bad idea. Any other opinions would be appreciated, especially re the ancillary drugs.


#5

Why front load the anabolics? Given my situation won't my body respond real well to small dosages to begin with and then perhaps as cycle goes on larger dosages may be necessary?

Why won't nolvadex work for gyno when induced by Deca but it will work for gyno induced by other drugs? Since Nolvadex is a breast receptor blocker won't it block the receptor regardless of which drug is being used?

Won't the arimidex eliminate the benefits of estrogen as well as the bad side effects where as nolvadex or clomid would allow estrogen to develop but prevent the main side effect I want to avoid (gyno)?

Thanks


#6

 Test cyp or enan and Deca have long half lives, Deca being longer.  Frontloading will bring up your blood levels quicker and therefore you wont waste your first week or two.  You want to get these drugs into your system ASAP, continue with your set duration of use, and then begin PCT to bring your endogenous test levels back to normal ASAP.  

 Nolvadex blocks the estrogen receptors which is fine when using test because test converts to estrogen.  Deca can convert to progesterone which can also cause gyno so you will need something different to prevent this.  I believe most will say you will probably not have to worry about this at 500mg/week.  Also everyone reacts differently.

 Yes estrogen has some benefits but a lot more unwanted side effects.  Also remember you are only eliminating the estrogen for a short period of time maybe 8-12 weeks.  Use the arimidex at .5mgs EOD.

 Again remember, I am not an expert and hopefully some of the vets will chime in.

#7

I had excellent results with 1.5cc on Wednesday of propanate test and 1.5cc of winstrol on Saturday evening. I was certian to do chest mixed with my routeen on almost a daily basis and had no bitch tits. By mid cycle I was at 2cc of each. This was a year ago and I have seen little decrease in size. I am going back for round two shortly. If I do not go the same route I will probaly go to HGH.


#8

Frontloading brings your levels up quicker, this is very beneficial when using those long esters.

Nandrolone does convert to estrogen.. but much less than testosterone.. some research shows 80% less conversion than test. What is of more concern is that Nandrolone has an affinity for the progesterone receptor. This has the same side effects as estrogen.

Some argue that Nolva works for both estrogen and progestin induced gyno because the progestins just exacerbate the problems of estrogen. As Nolva is selective in breast tissue, it is said it can help with both cases.

Others say this is not true and only saw reduction of nandro/tren gyno from Dostinex/Bromo or high doses of B-6(400mg) with Vitex Agnus Castus(400mg-800mg)

Those are the 2 schools of thought on the subject.

To be safe, when I am running Test and Nandrolone at the same time, I take Dostinex(0.5mg E5D) and Raloxifene(40-80mg ED) or Nolva(20mg ED) when I notice gyno symptoms. I feel it's better safe than sorry.

It should be noted that Dostinex and Bromo are Dopomine Agonists. There are no studies to show the long term effects of using these compounds for our purposes. Some fear that it can cause the onset of Parkinson's disease.

A good side effect of using Dostinex is that seeing as it lowers prolactin so efficiently,it can give the man the ability to have multi-orgasms in a session. :slight_smile: It does one hell of a positive number on your libido.

It's good you're doing research. Keep it up, we're always learning.

Just my 2cc's

peace.


#9

I still don't get the front loading idea. If due to the esther these drugs take a couple weeks to be effective, then what difference is takeing a larger dosage going to do? How could front loading shorten the effect of the esther? I can see how front loading with say HCG for pct would be very effective. Can anyone else validate or debunk this front loading idea.

So re the gyno problem I guess I'll take the nolva and B-6 to be safe and then if I see a problem develop I'll go to one of the other above options to fight any progesterone related gyno.

What do you guys think of my dosage and cycle length. I sure don't want to have any trouble returning to my pre cycle test levels.


#10

I have got your awnser here! Check out the books that Mick Hart,s got out! THE LAYMAN'S Guide to Sterriods I and II. I thought they were awsome for the beginner. Best of luck and email were u obtained your gear from. Looking for the same gear. I will leave that up to U? Ty

farmboy1969