T Nation

First Cycle Advice, Testogel Not Enough


#1

Im nearly 19 years old and have been training solidly for 3 years. I am nutrition obsessed and have seen dieticians along with trainers to help perfect my nutrition around my training regimes. My workouts have been intense for almost all of the three years, and made good gains. I am just over 6ft and I currently weigh in around 170 pounds. However, I currently have clinically low testosterone, as a result of hormonal in-functions, and this is ongoing (over the past 8 months or so) with no sign of any solution in the near future. Training is my life, and I am currently at uni studying to become a personal trainer.

On Dr prescribed testogel and thorough strict diet I have been able to bring my training back and do what I love again. Tho this is without results. My test is still down. And there is no options of increasing med (as it is a dry set gel) and cannot change med till late Jan until my dr comes back from a holiday.

The long and the short of it is that I would like to undertake my first cycle on anabolic steroids. I have done my homework and spent most of my time researching for the past few weeks (this means a lot to me!). I have been recommended to this site because of the vast experience and knowledge that is available from you guys. It would be great if I could get some advice :slightly_smiling:

I was thinking a short course to start with to check tolerance, and get a feel between the balance of good gains, and side affects.

w 1-4 D-bol
w 1-7 Test En
w 4-7 Proviron

PCT is such a controversial subject. Some advice none, and the rest advice various different routes. Even tho it is a short course I still want to do PCT even just as an experience and a precaution. I was thinking along the lines:

w 7-12 Nolvadex (tapering, starting at 50mg/ed)
Also I thought have a couple HCG on hand if needed. Didn't wanna mess with clomid with such a short cycle and the emotional problems it can cause??

Your advice is much appreciated. I'm here to learn :slightly_smiling:
thanks


#2

You might want to have an idea of the AMOUNT of each drug you plan on taking...

Actually, ney, doing steroids in your condition is rather stupid...you need a good doc...what sort of doctor takes a vacation for 3 fucking months?

If your current TRT is not working (some people can't absorb gels) then you should look at just injecting a TRT dosage of Test until you get your shit straight.

What does your bloodwork look like on the testogel?


#3

Up on testogel but tapered off slowly, along with energy levels, and both the wanted anabolic/andro effects that a normal test should produce. Sorry missed that out. I was considering low to get a feel, as HUGE isn't what I'm going for but I do want to see some big gains back in my training. I thought as a first course..

w 1-4 D-bol 20mg/ed (Just as a kickstart as the course is short and test E takes longer to affect)
w 1-7 Test En 300mg/ew
w 4-7 Proviron

I have a lot to weigh up before I 'jump' to do this course, you're right. But I wanted to know if I even had the first clue about it to do it, and do it as safely as possible (good PCT also!). Ideally the PCT 'jumpstart' when taking HCG might even be able to stimulate my leydig cells into action!! I have already experienced the full brute of literally no test. Experienced all the sides. It's not pretty. But to me this path looks like gains... gains worthy of the risks. Still like I said I'm not in a rush and trying other options first is something I am actively progressing thru, tho it's not an option to change med till jan (which I think would be a substance similar to sustanon, with long chain esters, once 3/4 weekly jab).


#4

[Proviron 25mg ed]


#5

The drum says: dum dum dum dum dum


#6

Get a decent TRT program first.

Is your hypogonadalism primary or secondary?


#7

secondary. Hypothalamus related tho tests are inconclusive. Definitely secondary. Hopefully a short course followed by thorough PCT may ignite some production. Gel I'm on now is repressive tho, so I wouldn't worry about shut down as a result of course, I'm shut down now!! TRT will basically be changed to injection, but not till Jan, and I have plenty of time to have short course before then.

If PCT started my own production I would be over the moon, and that in my opinion justifies the risks with juice, (and the gains would make me a very happy trainer once again!) But then again do you think I'm making a stupid decision?


#8

Well yea. Not just because youre young and underdeveloped. But because you think that post cycle therapy drugs (I assume youre talking about a SERM) will repair your secondary hypogonadism. That probably wont happen.

If you do have secondary hypogonadism (meaning your balls actually are capable of producing testosterone) then it would make sense to look into using hCG and possibly hMG.

You also seem to think that there is a cure for hypogonadism. Aside from addressing possible nutrtion/mineral deficiencies that can result in low testosterone production, you cannot cure this. You can treat the symptoms.

Your english is pretty bad so I may have misread this, but did you actually say that you tapered off the t-gel with the hope that the effects would last?


#9

This isn't totally correct. If his HPTA was suppressed due to some sort of infection or malnutrition or whatever, that has since been rectified, he may be able to recover natural production using a SERM restart.

I have no idea what the success rate is for that, but I have seen at least 10 guys over the past year do it successfully with Clomid. Basically just run it almost the same as PCT, and slowly tapering off.

Do not think this guy has the knowledge or wherewithal to accomplish this on his own though.


#10

Forgot to mention the second part about hcg/hmg. This could be successful as well, but is better for continuing therapy after a SERM restart has failed. Since hcg is suppressive to the pituitary, the restarts are more successful when the pituitary is directly targeted instead of targeting the testes first and hoping the pituitary keeps driving them after the hcg is discontinued.


#11

No the effects of the gel (andro/anabolic) have tapered off over the time I have been using it.

Thank you VTBalla34 this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to hear more about. Basically exactly what I was about to put forward. I too have heard of people in similar circumstances to me recover from SERM and HCG. In my case it is secondary I meant HCG only works if your anterior pituitary gland is capable of producing the luteinizing hormone hormone needed for testosterone formation in the Leydig cells right? HCG is stimulating the production through acting as the gonadotropin LH am I wrong? Well if my hypogonadism is a result of secondary shutdown (most likely thought to be my hypothalamus that controls the pituitary) then HCG may not help. I thought that SERM may work? I have been told there may not be a cure. If so then why wait to get older when my cardiovascular and muscle/bone health may suffer as a result of prolonged reduced testosterone levels? Furthermore, BONEZ127 I may never fully develop to the extent that a 'normal' guy might.


#12

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

Do not think this guy has the knowledge or wherewithal to accomplish this on his own though.

True, true. Maybe as diminishing as that comment may be towards me, it is one i must accept... After all I am here to learn. If you have a greater knowledge of such subjects then please, divulge, so I may learn.


#13

This basically sums it all up.

The only thing I notice is that you refer to secondary as only concerning the hypothalamus. When I use the term secondary, I'm mostly referring to the pituitary (but both would be considered secondary however). Testicular failure would be considered primary.

I say that in regards to the pituitary because that is the only part of the HPTA that I know how to manipulate (via SERM). If your hypothalmus isn't signaling correctly, I don't know what you can do about that.


#14

sorry I just said most likely. I am aware that secondary is the whole mechanics of test production outside of the Testes. If there is nothing I can do then like I say... why wait. Or do you suggest that I drop my dreams of growing. If thats what you guys feel is a wise approach to my situation, then thankyou for your opinion, I will take no heed, but no notice. Imagine my circumstance through your eyes. No solutions offered.

Ask yourself, if you had given up when you found plateau where would you be today? I see this as a plateau at present. Just like a plateau from say years of the same training routine; this plateau caused by low test has a solution too. Whether this solution is deemed 'stupid', 'dumb' or whatever by you as guys... To me it is a temporary solution to atleast taste. This prolonged plateau is what draws me temptingly to a short course and THOROUGH PCT. I hope that one day I shall get past the plateau naturally.

If either of you (maybe against your better judgement) have advice on the course/PCT, I would inattentively research it and greatly value your experiences/knowledge/ or advice.

You made clear your opinions. Maybe in the future I will hold these values too.


#15

...*If thats what you guys feel is a wise approach to my situation, then thankyou for you opinion, I WILL TAKE HEED, but no notice...


#16

No. No one came close to saying that.

What you should be doing is fixing your TRT. Not jumping into cycle doses when there is absolutely no need for it.

Your problem isnt a plateau. You have a medical problem. Fix the problem so you have normal T levels (somewhere around 800ng/dl). If you cant past 170 damn pounds with normal test levels then there is something very wrong with your training and diet.

But you also said you dont want to get big, so I cant really understand why you would want to use a bodybuilding dose of steroids to NOT get big.

You sound like just another guy who wants to use steroids for the sake of it. Its that's so, fine. Whos going to stop you. But there's really no point in your current state.


#17

If you plan to just use a SERM in an attempt to restart yourself, fine. Good luck.

Doing so after running a cycle that will COMPLETELY shut off your test production doesnt seem to be the best idea though.


#18

Good advice. Thankyou. I'm not just another guy wanting to use roids for the hell of it. Just frustrated. I'm gonna get my head screwed back on, get my test sorted and train/eat like a mother. I think you guys might be right, I used to build easy. Gonna get my self sorted with the doctors properly, and stay off the roid bandwagon for now. After all... this game isn't meant to be easy ey.

Thanks very much for your input. I'm glad you didn't fuel me more towards it. I'm young, if I started roids now, then potentially theres a long time to reap the consequences. Hopefully one day with a bit more age, weight, and wisdom under my belt I will look back at this with changed eyes. Look out for me in the future guys :wink: ha.

Happy training