T Nation

First Cycle Advice Plus Some Q's


Hey everyone
I've been thinking about joining the dark side for a while now and it is gonna happen in about 5 months after I graduate university and find a schedule that allows me to focus on bodybuilding with good consistency. I've been doing lotsa reading for the past year or so to put a good cycle and PCT together and the information on this forum were just invaluable. Llewellyn's Anabolics 2009 was great too but some info were outdated and it lead to confusion.

A little background:
I'm 21, 260 lbs at the moment around 16-17% bf (the display pic is very recent), been training for 3 years seriously with acceptable and still expanding knowledge of training/nutrition (5 years at the gym). I would say 3 years is not much experience but the quality of those years balances that out (I hope). I used to be 200 lbs at around 22% bf so I'd say my progress isn't that bad. The leanest I've been was last summer 235 lbs at around 10% bf so I don't have a problem dieting and cutting even though I'm on the endomorph side.

I'm def not growing as fast as I did when I first started but I still have a little more room to develop naturally; however, I see many guys my age with much less discipline and dedication surpassing me and since I wanna become competitive I don't wanna fall behind. I kinda regret why I didn't start saucin earlier but oh well ...

As for instability of endocrine system at this age, I went through puberty earlier than most peers and I guess my test levels are a little higher than avg (and also high SHBG levels hence the carpet I've got growin on my back) so I don't think my system is really gonna go through any fluctuations anymore.

Currently I'm eating 4000-4500 cals on avg and just started training x2 a day. I train strictly BBing style (That's what I wanna get into) with scary intensity and an unorthodox high volume but It's been working for me so not gonna change that yet.

I have a coupla different ideas for my first cycle which basically revolve around test E and deca with a taper protocol for my PCT (What an amazing thread btw). It is very similar to what onion2 suggested in that thread.

The simplest version would be:
Week 1-4: Dbol @ 50mg/D
Week 1-12: Test E @ 2x250mg/W
Week 1-9(or)10: Deca @ 300mg/W *When would you suggest to end Deca? End of week 9 or 10?
Week 1-12: hCG @ 2x250IU/W
Week 1-12: Adex @ 0.25mg/D
Week 13-18: Test E @ 2x50mg/W
Week 13-15: Adex Taper down to 0.25mg/EOD discontinue at the end of week 15
Week 19-24: Test E @ 2x(40/30/25/20/15/10)mg/W
Week 19-24: Nolva @ 20mg/D
Week 25-26: Tribulus @ 3g/D
Week 25-26: DAA @ 3g/D

Now first question would be about Nolvadex:
Guru posted an article form Anthony Roberts on the Newbie thread P.7 which said anyone suggesting doses of Nolva above 20mg is not reputable (something like that) but I see people suggesting the use of up to 60mg of it on the first days... Any thoughts on that? Is 20mg/D sufficient? Also would there be any point in taking Nolva @ 10mg/D for week 25-26?

Second question would be about the use of an AI on cycle:
Of course I will be having Letro and Caber on hand in case gyno or libido/prolactin problems break out but as for using an AI like Adex to manage E all throughput the cycle, doesn't estrogen actually help increase size/strength? It also keeps the joints healthy and won't let blood lipid levels go outa whack. I'm quoting Llewellyn's book where he says using AI's on cycle will dampen the anabolic results. Can anyone explain that please?

I could add Proviron to the cycle as well:
Week 1-4: Dbol @ 50mg/D
Week 1-12: Test E @ 2x250mg/W
Week 1-12: Proviron @ 50mg/D
Week 1-9(or)10: Deca @ 300mg/W *When would you suggest to end Deca? End of week 9 or 10?
Week 1-12: hCG @ 2x250IU/W
Week 1-12: Adex @ 0.25mg/D
Week 13-18: Test E @ 2x50mg/W
Week 13-15: Proviron @ 25mg/D
Week 13-15: Adex Taper down to 0.25mg/EOD discontinue at the end of week 15
Week 19-24: Test E @ 2x(40/30/25/20/15/10)mg/W
Week 19-24: Nolva @ 20mg/D
Week 25-26: Tribulus @ 3g/D
Week 25-26: DAA @ 3g/D
*Should I take less Adex when Proviron is added? Since it acts as a mild Anti-E?

The big question:
What do you guys think about this cycle for a first timer? The doses might seem too low to some people but I'm sure Bushy and Schwarzenegger discussed how less can be more somewhere on the forum and I really liked the sound of that.
Also this is a very standard cycle that lasts a full 26 weeks (6 months exact) including PCT. I have a feeling FuriousGeorge is a big fan of this cycle length; but I've read it a couple times recently that people (Bonez???) preferred shorter cycles with higher doses (8 weeks instead of 12) due to better results and recovery. What are your thoughts on that? I figured my test taper is very gradual and hCG is also incorporated in the cycle so I shouldn't have problems with recovery.

Sorry for the long message I tried to include as much detail necessary and make my questions as clear as possible. Any advice/suggestion is much appreciated.


How tall are you? 235 @ 10% is a pretty outrageous natty physique.

I would start with a simpler cycle, 500mg for 10 weeks or 750mg for 8, with a frontload and a Dbol kickstart if you're feeling ambitious. If you really want to run Deca you need to get your hands on some Cabergoline in case of prolactin issues.

The taper is an interesting idea, but I don't really know anybody who actually does it. Not trying to knock any of the guys in that thread, but a standard SERM PCT works just fine (Nolva 40/40/20/20 2 weeks after last inject).


Hey overstand

I'm 6' tall well 5'11" plus change
I'm a bit heavier than my size so 235 @ 10% might be misleading.
My measurements are 18" arms, 29" thighs, 50-51" chest, 36" waist :(, almost 18" calves, 14" forearms and of course some ofem will come down as I diet down and lose weight. But that should give you a rough estimate.

It makes sense to go easy on the first cycle but I'm kinda feelin brave atm lol I'll def take that into consideration though. I still got 5 more months to plan and adjust.
And yes I did say that Letro and Caber will be on hand all the time.
How would you go about using caber btw? I haven't found much info on prolactin problems ... well I haven't been diggin deep enough for that


Oh and yes I've considered that too. right now I'm just really on the taper protocol mindset maybe since I just finished reading that thread another time.
I'm kinda unstable when it comes to decision making right now that's why I wanna listen to everyone's opinion and choose something that I feel is optimal for me.

for a conventional PCT I guess I would stop Deca after 8 weeks and test after 10 weeks. Allow 2 weeks to clear my system and then start Nolva+Aromasin+Vit E 1000IU/D


Dont use deca in a first cycle. Or in any CYCLE for that matter. It makes recovery a bitch. Save it for when/if you decide to blast and cruise.


There are other drugs that are just as good and dont wreak havoc on the HPTA. Not that that's relevant as I dont suggest anything other than testosterone for a first cycle (or two or three).


Ok most people who hate deca do because of the prolactin issues but I also know many people who use it in their cycles. (just because they do it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do ... fine) but I'm stopping deca end of week 9 and running test alone for another 3 weeks plus 12 weeks of tapering. I assumed recovering wouldn't be that big of a problem but I guess I should leave deca out for now. What are your thoughts on mast E to run aside test E?


Ive made my thoughts on a first cycle very clear.

If youre simply looking for someone to validate your indoctrinated opinion, youre asking the wrong person.


I fully understood your thoughts on a first cycle and on the use of deca and I appreciate the input
I'm not looking for validation I was simply asking for further explanation as to why you think a certain way; people have different opinions and I listen to them all but the rationale behind the opinion is as important for me.


I think the easiest explanation is to use Test only on a first cycle to guage how your body will react. I knew this going into my first cycle, but decided to add in some eq as well, as I liked the appeal of increased apetite (which it delievered). But keeping it simple first time around is probably best in any case. Especially if your 21 and still have several years before your endogenous test production begins to decline.


fair enough ...


First off we are not thr dark side
Second your cycle has way too much going on
Your first cycle should be a test only cycle
500mg a week no front loads no orals to kick start
You don't even know how your going to react let alone mutiple compounds
.25mg adex EOD
A soid clomid/nolva PCT
Save the multiple compound cycles for later
12 week simple cycle like this is great for a first run.
I am 39 6'1" 135 8% body fat I keep it simple my last cyce was 16 weeks
Test cyp 300mg a week. The slower you build the longer you will keep your gains


Thank you
based on the suggestions I've been getting from other people that sounds like the way to go although it does make sense to frontload the test
and by "dark side" I was of course kidding


You are using Test E, front load.