T Nation

First Cycle, 6 Weeks of Orals Only

I’m 5’7"/5’8" 170#, 24yrs, 2 years solid training experience, 1 year at my 170# wall. Diet is ~3k kcal/day, ~220g protein, 60g fat, rest carbs from grains/fruits/veg. Current supps are the basic ones; Whey, creatine, BCAA, fish oils, multi, ZMA.

I’m getting ready to start a 6 week cycle of oral only. I’m not going to take injects my first cycle so if you’re going to pull the “if you’re only going to take orals, send me the money instead of throwing it away” don’t waste your time.

My options for the oral cycle are Anadrol50 and Dbol. I was thinking 100mgs of Anadrol vs. 25mgs Dbol. I hear Anadrol’s results are more front-loaded, leaving less bulk at the end, but all I’m really worried about is what I retain post-cycle and how long it stays in my system (I’m leaning more towards Dbol)

Which brings me to PCT:

Have any of you ran the PCT off steriods.com?

It’s
Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

I was thinking since I’d just be running a light cycle, that PCT might be a little intense, and I don’t know how easily I could get Aromasin since I don’t know anyone who has it.

Any advice would be awesome, thanks!

  1. Using only a Class II androgen is not particularly effective.

The reason there are a lot of scientific studies finding “anabolic steroids are not shown to increase muscle mass or enhance athletic performance” is because they studied things such as Dianabol 25 mg/day and indeed many users, when evaluating actual LBM not merely scale weight, do in fact get nothing positively measurable out of it.

That said I’ve personally known of a couple of cases that got a significant benefit with less – not from the bulking aspect but from first-time users who were looking to get more defined – so it’s not that nothing can ever happen, but rather that is’t not much of a plan to say the least.

  1. 100 mg/day Anadrol as the sole drug used has more promise but still using this as the sole drug is not the best.

For better results a Class I androgen is needed as well – or an anabolic steroid combining the properties, namely testosterone.

I will leave it to you to find out what that means, because you need to do research about anabolic steroid use, it’s quite clear, before starting – which does not mean just posting a new thread.

  1. Your planned HCG use is way excessive. 100 IU per day would suffice. 200 IU per day is a top-of-the-range, IMO, value for daily use.

  2. Why you picked exemestane or why you think you need it with this overall plan, I have no idea and kind of suspect you don’t either. Bad choice for an aromatase inhibitor.

  3. I also have no idea why you consider Vitamin E to be PCT.

If you do want to use Vitamin E, getting completely off the topic of PCT, I’d suggest a brand high in gamma tocopherol.

Five strikes maybe means that you’re way far away from having done enough to find out about this, to be doing it.

Vitamin E is supposed to increase the plasma response to HCG, but if I went on a lower dose of HCG, it probably would be a waste of money anyways.

The PCT isn’t for a C2 androgen cycles, and that’s why I asked if it was a little much, which apparently it is.

Thanks for the advice though, it gives me more to look into.

The information is out there, you’ll be confident in what you’re doing, having the information for yourself, in no time.

A good Vitamin E supplement – that is, one high in gamma tocopherol – is worth doing in any case, at least if there isn’t a cost issue which of course often there will be and it should always be a consideration. HCG already works as effectively as I would expect that it can; if same response could be achieved with slightly less HCG due to using high Vitamin E, as you suggest I doubt the money thereby saved on HCG – as it’s a cheap drug – would come close to the cost of the Vitamin E.

I’m not aware of what study you’re referring to (which in no way implies it doesn’t exist) but I would think the chances are it probably looks at a totally different dosing protocol. Dr Shippen has taken – I am assuming probably independently – to using dosing protocols basically the same as I have recommend for 3x/week use (also an acceptable method) but the medical establishment in general has not, though it is beginning to happen particularly with a recent dose/response study finally, at last, looking at doses at these sorts of levels.

Believe it or not when I got into this stuff the standard dogma was 5000 IU at a time and HCG was considered a “harsh drug.” (No wonder!)

I did some more looking around and found a 4-week cycle of 50mg Adrol/50mg Winny to be relatively solid, even though some recommend 100mg of both with liver protectants and milk thistle. What do you think about moving that route, cutting the HCG to 100mg through week 3 and keeping 500iu Vit E throughout the PCT?

I am not speaking for Bill, but I think he was emphasizing the value of class 1/class 2 synergy. I believe that synergy is important for maintaing the gains made on a short oral cycle.

There is a current thread about an Anadrol/Winstrol cycle. Check it out.

Yea I checked it out, and I think the 2 week cycle was a horrible idea from the start. I don’t know about his diet or training, but he’s one of the few I’ve seen not keep any results from an oral stack.

A lot of people make orals sound like skittles compared to an injectable, but I don’t see the huge difference. I mean, a 100mg tab of Adrol is the same as a 100mg injection minus the first liver pass right? And if they’re talking about C1/C2 synergy, why aren’t they a little more specific? While it may skew results by 5% or some small amount to go with oral over inject, I’m only looking for a 10 to 15# retention in my gains at the end of the story, and that’s where I plan on staying indefinitely. (review: 180 to 185 is my ideal weight)

The gains are for my job where any advantage could potentially save my life, but being too big would be a severe hindrance. I’m not doing this for aesthetics, I’m doing it because no matter how hard I try, I haven’t been able to hit my 180# goal in 2 years of trying.

So, knowing all that, I’m still leaning toward a 6 week cycle of 50mg/50mg with a 6 week PCT stated above with those adjustments. What do you think?

Who is the “he”?

As for thinking 100 mg Anadrol to be the same as 100 mg of injection except for first pass (and there is no significant loss of Anadrol first pass) this must be based on some truly odd idea that milligrams of one drug are same as milligrams of another drug: 100 mg of this is generally going to be the same as 100 mg of any other drug in that class.

Can you name ONE class of drug that exists where this is the case? Rather than it being the case that different drugs have different potencies and either doses for given effect are usually different, or for same dose amount of effect is usually different?

Anyway, you try 100 mg/day Anadrol and let your friend or another person try 50 mg/day TA plus 50 mg/day Dianabol. Afterwards, as John Morrison would say, be jealous.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Afterwards, as John Morrison would say, be jealous.[/quote]

LOL nicee!

[quote]pump21 wrote:
I’m not going to take injects my first cycle so if you’re going to pull the “if you’re only going to take orals, send me the money instead of throwing it away” don’t waste your time.

[/quote]

I would add to Bill’s comments and say that if you don’t plan around this synergy by taking an injectable. Don’t waste your time.

For the moment, I’m going to ignore your close minded approach and tell myself that you wouldn’t have asked if you weren’t going to at least consider our advice. I may be wrong, but here’s my thoughts:

You need an AI on hand.
Reread everything Bill wrote.
Enjoy your cycle and report back when finished.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Who is the “he”?

As for thinking 100 mg Anadrol to be the same as 100 mg of injection except for first pass (and there is no significant loss of Anadrol first pass) this must be based on some truly odd idea that milligrams of one drug are same as milligrams of another drug: 100 mg of this is going to be the same as 100 mg of that.

Can you name ONE class of drug that exists where this is the case? Rather than it being the case that different drugs have different potencies and either doses, for given effect are different, or for same dose, amount of effect is different?

Anyway, you try 100 mg/day Anadrol and let your friend or another person try 50 mg/day TA plus 50 mg/day Dianabol. Afterwards, as John Morrison would say, be jealous.[/quote]

“He” is the OP in the other thread about Anadrol/Winny cycle thread, but he doesn’t have much of a PCT plan so I didn’t pay much attention to it. I also agree that there are different potencies, and definitely different results for different variations of the same drug.

Are you talking the oral version of TA or the inject?

[quote]pump21 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Who is the “he”?

As for thinking 100 mg Anadrol to be the same as 100 mg of injection except for first pass (and there is no significant loss of Anadrol first pass) this must be based on some truly odd idea that milligrams of one drug are same as milligrams of another drug: 100 mg of this is going to be the same as 100 mg of that.

Can you name ONE class of drug that exists where this is the case? Rather than it being the case that different drugs have different potencies and either doses, for given effect are different, or for same dose, amount of effect is different?

Anyway, you try 100 mg/day Anadrol and let your friend or another person try 50 mg/day TA plus 50 mg/day Dianabol. Afterwards, as John Morrison would say, be jealous.

“He” is the OP in the other thread about Anadrol/Winny cycle thread, but he doesn’t have much of a PCT plan so I didn’t pay much attention to it. I also agree that there are different potencies, and definitely different results for different variations of the same drug.

Are you talking the oral version of TA or the inject?[/quote]

Oral trenbolone?? The crazy toxic stuff that was talked about here some time ago in the past? I don’t think orals have acetate esters to begin with, what drug are you referring to?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Oral trenbolone?? The crazy toxic stuff that was talked about here some time ago in the past? I don’t think orals have acetate esters to begin with, what drug are you referring to? [/quote]

I hear it is crazy toxic, and can give you Decca Dick, what’s why I was asking haha

I don’t know though… injectables seem a little out of my league. I hear stories of people running oral cycles and keeping 15#s, and I that fits in with my goals. If I can get 15# of maintainable mass in a 6 week cycle with 6 weeks of PCT using orals, I don’t see the benefit of switching to an inject. I’m always open to more advice though, and by no means am I set in my ways yet.

[quote]pump21 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:

Oral trenbolone?? The crazy toxic stuff that was talked about here some time ago in the past? I don’t think orals have acetate esters to begin with, what drug are you referring to?

I hear it is crazy toxic, and can give you Decca Dick, what’s why I was asking haha

I don’t know though… injectables seem a little out of my league. I hear stories of people running oral cycles and keeping 15#s, and I that fits in with my goals. If I can get 15# of maintainable mass in a 6 week cycle with 6 weeks of PCT using orals, I don’t see the benefit of switching to an inject. I’m always open to more advice though, and by no means am I set in my ways yet.[/quote]

Well I still don’t know what drug you were reffering to before, but Bill was talking about Injectable Tren Acetate. It is not as toxic as the oral form.

Why would injectables be out of your league, but orals not be?
And if you don’t see the benefit of using injectables instead of (or with) an Anadrol or Dbol cycle than you should continue reading before making the final decision.

I hear stories of people using dbol only and gaining 25 pounds but only keeping 5 pounds…what’s your point?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I don’t think orals have acetate esters to begin with, what drug are you referring to? [/quote]

Many do. Off the top of my head, I know oral Primo has an acetate ester attached.

And to echo what Bone said about injectables being out of your league as opposed to orals. I think each has it’s own negative sides that need to be considered.

[quote]xXDevilDogXx wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
I don’t think orals have acetate esters to begin with, what drug are you referring to?

Many do. Off the top of my head, I know oral Primo has an acetate ester attached.[/quote]

I stand corrected. Thank you

No worries. Now that I think about, I shouldn’t have said ‘many’. Oral Primo is the only one I can think of.

I think there is a steroid writer out there that claims trenblone gives “Deca dick” out of some unfounded theory that it increases prolactin, but his error is that he is mistaking the effects of abnormally low estrogen, which a cycle using ONLY trenbolone will cause, with the libido-impairing effects of Deca, which are totally unrelated to abnormally low estrogen, neither caused by it nor requiring it.

In fact, if estrogen levels remain normal, trenbolone enhances libido.

It is necessary to keep in mind there’s a lot of bad steroid “information” out there along with the good. The thing to do is to see if the writer is clear about why he is saying a given thing, to see if there is a weight of evidence that practical outcomes are as he says, and to see if it even makes sense, in the light of other information one obtains.

I am loving your posts Bill, you are truly a very valuable poster (and writer of course) and i am very glad i am able to interact with you - you have taught me much over the years in one way or another.

Arse licking aside… is trenbolone not a progestin then? Simple as that?
I mean… on thinking about it - how can it be a progestin and give the dryest, leanest gains possible? I have considered that before and just assumed it was not as strong a progestin as Deca or it somehow managed to work through a different manner - ignorance in endocrinology allows this!

Brook

Yea well thanks for the info Bill, it’s been awesome. Every new post guides my own research and I’ve learned a ton more in these past 2 days than I have in the entire time looking by myself.

I hear that 4 weeks is a decent cycle for TA, is that what you would run? I can afford a 6 week cycle of TA and Dbol if I don’t spend much on anti E’s until PCT, but if 4 weeks is enough then by far it would work for me.

I hear running Nolvadex during the cycle will impede some of the gains, but to avoid side-effects, I was thinking about running 100mg Nolv/day and then adding the HCG and Aromisin PCT only, while staying on 100mg Nolv. I looked up using high amounts of HCG PCT and you’re definitely right, I didn’t see that anything good came from it.