T Nation

First Cycle @ 21 Years Old, Opinion Please


Hy everybody, My name is Georg and I am 21 years old.
Started Lifting at 17, and made good progress by good nutrition and training.(see attached picture).
At this moment i fell im stucked in my current weight (85kg) and every gain i make over that weight seems to be very unclean(a lot of fat).

My goals are reaching 95Kg of bodyweight at about 8% bodyfat (as you can see in the picture im in the 13-15% range, and i want to know your honest opinion about starting with juice.
Now Im on the Anabolic diet and it has helped a lot in adding a little bit of mass without fat.
My averange intake of calories is about 3500-4000/day, 55% fat, 40% prots and 5% carbs.

My stats are:
Weight: 85Kg
High: 1,84 cm
Age: 21 (birthday one week ago)
Bloodwork done and Liver is OK and:
Free Test at: 13.9 pg/mL
Total test at: 590 ng/dL

Ive read a lot about the topic and I know that if I start i should try to make the maximum out of the first cycle and not starting with Only anavar nor Winny. So, i would really appreciate your opinion about starting with steroids like test E @250mg/week and if it would damage my hormone levels for ever(even with apropiate PCT) as i talk with an endrocrinologist and he said that using steroids like test would drive you into an hipogonadal state, even more at my age it could mess my hormones very badly.

Thank you in advance for your response, and im really sory about my written english as it is not my first language. Hope you understand.

Congrats about the forum and all the info, it has been very usefull to me and my progress so far!

bump

This isnt my most knowagable area but at your age I wouldnt use em. From guys I know who have done cycle(and they did know what they were talking about)your levels should still be high based on youth. Anyone correct me if im wrong but if I were him I’d wait a few years.

[quote]MrDan500 wrote:
This isnt my most knowagable area but at your age I wouldnt use em. From guys I know who have done cycle(and they did know what they were talking about)your levels should still be high based on youth. Anyone correct me if im wrong but if I were him I’d wait a few years. [/quote]

Did you read his post?

Your test levels are healthy, but I would classify them in the normal range. Since the range is usually 300-800 or sometimes 300-1100, you aren’t at the top. Some guys on HRT are shooting for levels above 700.

Look, no matter what we tell you on here, the decision is yours.

You look like you’ve gained some good clean weight over the years.

If you do decide to use, I wouldn’t stick with the low carb thing. If you are going to spend hundreds of dollars on gear and food, you might as well make the most of it, you can always get rid of any fat later.

IF you choose to use, I’d go with 500mg/week over 250. Test only would be a good first cycle to allow you to ease into the ‘game.’ Both 250mg and 500mg are going to shut you down, so IMO, you should use the amount that is going to provide better results. Just so you know, this isn’t proportionately true as you go higher and higher in mg, but between 250 and 500 there is a difference.

Are you ready to make a decision that can, and most likely will affect the rest of your life? What are your reasons for using? If it is just to look better and be bigger, is it worth it? You already look good and lean right now, even if you’re on the small side.

I am also a user who started young. I don’t plan on ever discontinuing training. Yes, I probably started to young, but I have a endocrinologist that allows me to get regular blood work done, and I also plan on being on HRT as soon as I can. Am I too young to make that decision? Only time will tell.

Again, in the end, its your choice. You sound like you have some intelligence, so if you do choose to use, make sure to read, read, and read some more before you ever do. In fact, I read solidly about this stuff for about 2 years before I ever decided to. If you just researched and educated yourself for a year, you would grow bigger naturally, and be 22 by the time you started.

You might as well wait a bit longer at least. You seem to be making great progress as it is. Good job.

DOHCrazy has some good advice you should think about. Your goals are going to dictate your choice heavily, as if you were planning to compete in bodybuilding competitions, organized sports, or recreational lifting. Each have their own merit for the time you start down the ‘enhanced’ path.

I started early in life as well, due to my desire to compete in BBing. I have regular blood work done as well, and take adequate time to allow my body to normalize following cycles. Do I regret starting in my early 20s? No. Will I regret my decision to start in my early 20s? I will see…

At your height (a little over 6’ tall) I believe you can achieve 200 lbs. (~91kg) without the use of gear. Upping your carbs and allowing for a little more weight gain will help drastically. I am your height and this is the advice given to me. I was able to get to 215 lbs at around 12% bf. before I took my first PEDs. You have made great progress, almost 50 lbs of lean mass in 3 years is an astounding feat! You will be able to keep this up for a good while longer naturally.

Just my 2 cents, but the most important thing is to stay hungry for knowledge. Respect AAS and AAS will respect you back. Goodluck.

DOHcrazy, thank you really much for you advice…same to jukebox…With your comments im encouraged trying to put on more weight by the natural way, as Ive been doing so far…
Lets say i reach the 90-95Kg we are talking about…

will it really mess up my system so much? I dont want to be a professional bodybuilder but i really like lifting weights and i enjoy every workout and every meal…i think about my phisique every minute and i never skip a meal/workout/good night sleep…i stopped drinking with my friends(im the only one) because of my goal…I want to look huge and ripped but i dont want to sacrifice my whole health for it, thats the point. Its like a personal goal more that anything…If im able to get an amazing shape then i will consider competing or modeling.

I want to have a reference about for example how bad is drinkg alcohol lets say about half a bottle RUM every weekend(like a lot of friends do)as i know alcohol meses up your hormones too…or doing just one Test E Cycle…
Will i ever recover with good PCT and keep gains after cycle? Or am i entering another world where you cant go out anymore? I dont want to stop lifting weights but maybe i just want to do one or two cycles and the forget about the Hormone game and continue my life big and Healthy, mantaining what ive accomplished.

I hope you understand my point.

I look forward to your answers, and thanks again.

[quote]ubergreg wrote:
You might as well wait a bit longer at least. You seem to be making great progress as it is. Good job.[/quote]

this what i meant by my post and to DOHCrazy i dont know why i wrote high I meant healthy. I just just believe thay gear is best used when natural gain stop or slow down drastically. But thats just my .02.

Pilosox whatever you choose best of luck

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
MrDan500 wrote:
This isnt my most knowagable area but at your age I wouldnt use em. From guys I know who have done cycle(and they did know what they were talking about)your levels should still be high based on youth. Anyone correct me if im wrong but if I were him I’d wait a few years.

Did you read his post?

Your test levels are healthy, but I would classify them in the normal range. Since the range is usually 300-800 or sometimes 300-1100, you aren’t at the top. Some guys on HRT are shooting for levels above 700.

Look, no matter what we tell you on here, the decision is yours.

You look like you’ve gained some good clean weight over the years.

If you do decide to use, I wouldn’t stick with the low carb thing. If you are going to spend hundreds of dollars on gear and food, you might as well make the most of it, you can always get rid of any fat later.

IF you choose to use, I’d go with 500mg/week over 250. Test only would be a good first cycle to allow you to ease into the ‘game.’ Both 250mg and 500mg are going to shut you down, so IMO, you should use the amount that is going to provide better results. Just so you know, this isn’t proportionately true as you go higher and higher in mg, but between 250 and 500 there is a difference.

Are you ready to make a decision that can, and most likely will affect the rest of your life? What are your reasons for using? If it is just to look better and be bigger, is it worth it? You already look good and lean right now, even if you’re on the small side.

I am also a user who started young. I don’t plan on ever discontinuing training. Yes, I probably started to young, but I have a endocrinologist that allows me to get regular blood work done, and I also plan on being on HRT as soon as I can. Am I too young to make that decision? Only time will tell.

Again, in the end, its your choice. You sound like you have some intelligence, so if you do choose to use, make sure to read, read, and read some more before you ever do. In fact, I read solidly about this stuff for about 2 years before I ever decided to. If you just researched and educated yourself for a year, you would grow bigger naturally, and be 22 by the time you started.
[/quote]

good post

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
DOHcrazy, thank you really much for you advice…same to jukebox…With your comments im encouraged trying to put on more weight by the natural way, as Ive been doing so far…
Lets say i reach the 90-95Kg we are talking about…

will it really mess up my system so much? I dont want to be a professional bodybuilder but i really like lifting weights and i enjoy every workout and every meal…i think about my phisique every minute and i never skip a meal/workout/good night sleep…i stopped drinking with my friends(im the only one) because of my goal…I want to look huge and ripped but i dont want to sacrifice my whole health for it, thats the point. Its like a personal goal more that anything…If im able to get an amazing shape then i will consider competing or modeling.

I want to have a reference about for example how bad is drinkg alcohol lets say about half a bottle RUM every weekend(like a lot of friends do)as i know alcohol meses up your hormones too…or doing just one Test E Cycle…
Will i ever recover with good PCT and keep gains after cycle? Or am i entering another world where you cant go out anymore? I dont want to stop lifting weights but maybe i just want to do one or two cycles and the forget about the Hormone game and continue my life big and Healthy, mantaining what ive accomplished.

I hope you understand my point.

I look forward to your answers, and thanks again.

[/quote]

Responsible AAS use with proper Post Cycle Therapy is not as harmful on the body as weekly binge drinking. Keeping away from orals makes even less of a comparison since the liver is not affected directly by most injectable steroids.

Will you ever fully recover from cycles? As long as cycles are not abnormally long and proper PCT is utilized, you in all probability, will normalize. Gains are kept as long as training and nutrition are spot on. You will lose some water weight( 5-7 lbs maybe) when aromatizable(spelling?) steroids are concluded.

Will you keep your muscle if you stop cycling forever? A tricky question…as long as you have not built an outrageous amount of muscle onto your frame (say 60+ lbs above your genetic limit), then it is very likely you can maintain your gains. You are not stuck on the ‘dark side’ forever…lol.

I took a six month break from all gear before I started my current cycle. I was up to 260 lbs at cycle end, and maintained 255 lbs over the next six months without the help of anabolics. Nutrition and training are the most important parts to this sport, the drugs are in 3rd or 4th, I personally rank rest in the 3rd slot above the drugs.

EDIT: Just say this thread as I finished up writing this. Will probably answer your question even better.

[quote]MrDan500 wrote:
This isnt my most knowagable area but at your age I wouldnt use em. From guys I know who have done cycle(and they did know what they were talking about)your levels should still be high based on youth. Anyone correct me if im wrong but if I were him I’d wait a few years. [/quote]

No. I do not miss you at all. Not even a little, not in the slightest.

Pilosox- It is a gamble on how quickly you will recover at your age. My training partner started using at 18 and his Free test is fine several weeks after being off. You might also have a “fragile” endo systema and it will take longer to get back to normal. AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ACCESS TO REGULAR BLOOD TESTING, you can do it reasonably safe, as you will know what is going on in your body. Look in to Test E 500mg/week for 6-8 wks and a Tamoxifen Citrate PCT. Maybe even HcG @ 200iu EOD if you want to be super safe.

[quote]Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
MrDan500 wrote:
This isnt my most knowagable area but at your age I wouldnt use em. From guys I know who have done cycle(and they did know what they were talking about)your levels should still be high based on youth. Anyone correct me if im wrong but if I were him I’d wait a few years.

No. I do not miss you at all. Not even a little, not in the slightest.[/quote]

Dude what the hell wre you talking about

[quote]MrDan500 wrote:
Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
MrDan500 wrote:
This isnt my most knowagable area but at your age I wouldnt use em. From guys I know who have done cycle(and they did know what they were talking about)your levels should still be high based on youth. Anyone correct me if im wrong but if I were him I’d wait a few years.

No. I do not miss you at all. Not even a little, not in the slightest.

Dude what the hell wre you talking about[/quote]

Your avatar, dood.


I’d also like to add that if I could go back in time, I wouldn’t change anything about my usage. If I for some reason didn’t recover fully, I might be signing a different tune.

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
DOHcrazy, thank you really much for you advice…same to jukebox…With your comments im encouraged trying to put on more weight by the natural way, as Ive been doing so far…
Lets say i reach the 90-95Kg we are talking about…

will it really mess up my system so much? I dont want to be a professional bodybuilder but i really like lifting weights and i enjoy every workout and every meal…i think about my phisique every minute and i never skip a meal/workout/good night sleep…i stopped drinking with my friends(im the only one) because of my goal…I want to look huge and ripped but i dont want to sacrifice my whole health for it, thats the point. Its like a personal goal more that anything…If im able to get an amazing shape then i will consider competing or modeling.

[/quote]

Everybody’s system is different. You might, and probably will be fine after you cycle if you do everything correctly and use quality gear, AI, and SERMs.

On the other hand, there is a small chance you will be fucked after only once cycle. Even though the chance is small, it is still there. Unfortunately, that chance is always there for a first timer. The reason most say wait, is because at 21, even though you think you’re ready to make that like changing decision, are you?

If you do mess something up, most stuff can be fixed. Problem is, some of the things can only be fixed with lifetime treatments or lots of money.

My friend saw it and pointed it out to me. I feel stuoid now. Sorry bout my post

DOH gives some good advice here, and he is speaking from an experienced point of view in regards to starting young so i would talk to him directly, perhaps he would be willing to help you lay out a plan. Hell truth be known i did ALL the wrong things when i was young…i shot my first bottle of test at 17 years old and i am in my 40’s…still kicking.

NOT WHAT I WOULD ADVISE…but my situation is different i have a defect from birth that basically meant i was legitimetaly hypogonadal from day one…so i never really “recover” per se. ANyway i am rambling but point is like DOH said the choice is yours really, and chances are there are alot worse things you could be doing to your health at 21. best of luck

Thank you again for the answers, it is really helping me to have a clear vision of what i will do.
Let me tell you today i went to my doctor (Sports Nutrition Expert here in chile) and we spoke about roids.
First I tought he would send me home with a kick on my ass but hes reaction on the topic was very different of what i tought. He knows me when i was 17 and 64kg haha) So:
He told me I could do a 12 week cycle like this:
Test Enanthate @ 500mg/week
Oxandrolone @ 20 mg ED exept on Sundays (why is he telling me to stop one day?; Ive read a lot about this and the only explanation i have is to make the liver rest or not to saturate receptors? Does receptors even exist?)

Well the thing is this doctor is really on Phisique enhancement as he gives advice to the best Chilean Soccer Teams, Tenis Players, Weightlifters, etc etc etc. And knows it all when it comes to Enhancers as he studies Biochemistry and all the related stuff.I mean the guy is a real expert.
We didnt speak much more about the topic because on the Sports medical Center he works it is not allowed to encourage people to use steroids. about PCT he gave me a little advice about tamoxifen but on week 8 i will go again to visit him so I have my bloodwork done and know how to end my cycle as goos as possible.

Let me tell you guys he said every Endocrin system goes back to nomal in about 6-8 months but at that time you loose everything you won on steroids, so the idea was to bring your hormones back as quick as posible.(I knew that but the thing is he said and was NEW to me is that it is not risky at all doing this kind of cycle at right doses, nobody normal person (my age and stats for example) gets hurt, never, and he made the comparison with tobacco killing people and alcohol too)

He also told me stuff like Primobolan or trenbolone where very damaging to your health comparing to testosterone Oxandrolone Nadrolone or Winny…whats up with that?

Having this said, i want to have the best of 2 worlds, lets say my doctors world and this one. So please an advice on how to make this cycle even better or adding something like Arimidex(easy to get here in chile) to prevent gyno as my nipples show that is easy for me to get gyno =s …
And/Or for the end of the cycle some Injected Stanozolol to increase anabolism before PCT?.
HCG At my age needed?

Thank you in advance, This post has been a real experience so far and really helpfull!

Thank you Detroitlionsbaby,DOHCrazy,morepain,jukebox hope you all can keep giving me your usefull advice!

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
Thank you again for the answers, it is really helping me to have a clear vision of what i will do.
Let me tell you today i went to my doctor (Sports Nutrition Expert here in chile) and we spoke about roids.
First I tought he would send me home with a kick on my ass but hes reaction on the topic was very different of what i tought. He knows me when i was 17 and 64kg haha) So:
He told me I could do a 12 week cycle like this:
Test Enanthate @ 500mg/week
Oxandrolone @ 20 mg ED exept on Sundays (why is he telling me to stop one day?; Ive read a lot about this and the only explanation i have is to make the liver rest or not to saturate receptors? Does receptors even exist?)

Well the thing is this doctor is really on Phisique enhancement as he gives advice to the best Chilean Soccer Teams, Tenis Players, Weightlifters, etc etc etc. And knows it all when it comes to Enhancers as he studies Biochemistry and all the related stuff.I mean the guy is a real expert.
We didnt speak much more about the topic because on the Sports medical Center he works it is not allowed to encourage people to use steroids. about PCT he gave me a little advice about tamoxifen but on week 8 i will go again to visit him so I have my bloodwork done and know how to end my cycle as goos as possible.

Let me tell you guys he said every Endocrin system goes back to nomal in about 6-8 months but at that time you loose everything you won on steroids, so the idea was to bring your hormones back as quick as posible.(I knew that but the thing is he said and was NEW to me is that it is not risky at all doing this kind of cycle at right doses, nobody normal person (my age and stats for example) gets hurt, never, and he made the comparison with tobacco killing people and alcohol too)

He also told me stuff like Primobolan or trenbolone where very damaging to your health comparing to testosterone Oxandrolone Nadrolone or Winny…whats up with that?

Having this said, i want to have the best of 2 worlds, lets say my doctors world and this one. So please an advice on how to make this cycle even better or adding something like Arimidex(easy to get here in chile)
Or for the end of the cycle some Injected Stanozolol to increase anabolism before PCT.
HCG At my age needed?

Thank you in advance, This post has been a real experience so far and really helpfull!

[/quote]

Morepain is right, there are a lot worse things you could be doing at 21. Because of my decision to use, I have simultaneously avoided alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and all recreational drugs. Continuous use of those would have been much worse for my body, in my opinion. On top of that, my diet is great, I feel great, and I am looking better each day, while still learning more and more.

Honestly, a doctor isn’t really who I would be listening to regarding AAS use. There is a lot of information available online, and we even have a handful of what I consider geniuses on this board. They may be reluctant to help you since you are so young, but you don’t really need to make your own thread, the information is all already there in other threads.

Your most recent post shows how much research you still need to do on AAS use. I suggest not just taking someone else’s plan and implementing it, but waiting until you understand why each of the drugs work, and can create your own plan. Realize that mid-cycle you may hit a road bump, and knowing how and why each drug works will help you get past any problems that may occur.

I also would stick to shorter cycles. They are easier to recover from, cheaper, and you can do more of them per year. For instance, I haven’t been on for more than 8 weeks of test prop.

Keep reading man, there is no need to rush in to this.

Of course, thanks, I will, but this conversation has helped me a lot since everyone is different i cannot apply stuff i read from people who is 40 years old exactly to me…So thats the reason i ask…
And i will keep reading as i know i have a lot more to learn, but this is a good start to focus on what i want…

I had things clear until i went to my doc as he said things that not always are the same that are beeing said here…

I will change my diet to high carb, Increase weight considerably until I reach 90 Kg minimum and after the summer and a lot more reading i will post a new thread with a structured cycle. Im sory about my hurry ive always been very passionate and unpatient when it comes to do something but i know i have to wait and you posts have been very helpful in this moment…So really i have to be grateful about your time dedicated to my knowledge!. Thanks a lot, DOHCrazy.