ultrafilter - that’s one problem I have with some forms of education - separating every subject, when in fact, they do overlap in some areas. I’m all for having classes in science, math, literature, and the like, but to say that math does not relate to science nor science to literature is insane. I think it gives our children a better sense of the world to know that two different subjects can be related.
With that being said, I see nothing wrong with presenting the current theories of how the universe began, evolution, etc., alongside with some of the widely-held beliefs about the same subjects. I do NOT think our children should be told what definitely happened (as far as the parts that we don’t know for certain), only the most widely-held theories (creationism, evolution, big bang, etc.). This will better prepare them for the world and future discussions of our beginnings, no matter what side of the issue they or their parents are on.
To have a grasp on what 95% of the world believes is better than having a grasp on what 40% of the world believes.
There is a lot more to the judge’s argument than just the 10 commandments. He’s saying it’s also a free speech issure, as well as a test of states rights.
One thing I’ve never understood though, is why do those that oppose mentioning God in any way in public get so bent out of shape about it. Is the basis for their beliefs so shallow that any mention of God or Jesus might blow their whole belief system away?
Also, if they are dead-set against God being mentioned in any government related way, do they refuse to accept money on pay day? It does say “In God we Trust”.
“In God we trust on the money isn’t very specific, the Ten Commandments are. They might as well be saying that Jews, Muslims, and just about any other religions just aren’t as good, which makes their followers second class citizens. That’s not the inclusive country the old guys started.”
By posting the Ten Commandments we are saying that Judaism isn’t as good as Christianity? WTF! The Ten Commandments come out of the book of Exodus, the second book of the Torah, you know the thing that Jews read! This has to be the most idiotic post I’ve read in a long time!
Oh come on people – you can’t just look at the text of the amendment and the context and decide what it means… you have to get into the high-falutin’ caselaw on the subject, because only the Supreme Court can decide what the Constitution means (I hope you detect some sarcasm).
Anyway, Establishment Clause jurisprudence and Free-Exercise jurisprudence are among the most convoluted and complicated – and most debated – areas of the law. If you read the opinions, I guarantee you will have no idea what end is up. Depending on how the court chooses to phrase the question, in terms of one or the other (even though they are obviously logically related in some of the cases), you will get opposite answers. Logically, most of it is a bunch of gobbledygook.
Suffice it to say that the trend has been to allow more government spending that goes to religious organizations, irrespective of the fungible nature of money, and more tolerance of displays of religion on government property (that is from a baseline measurement in the early to late 80s – it had been trending opposite that direction from about the 50s to that point). I think the main thing in this case that led the USSC not to even hear the appeal was the nature of the AL Sup. Court’s Chief Justice’s protest – he was basically quoted as thumbing his nose at the feds, and they don’t take that too well.
BTW, I don’t believe the USSC has weighed in on the whole “one nation, under God” issue in the case out of the 9th Circuit as of yet. That should be interesting, whenever it comes down the pike…
Let him take the thing home and put it in his yard if he likes it so much. I feel like other religions have a right to wan’t it removed. If you walk into a courthouse and you see a huge memorial to another religion and a memorial to yours is not there you will definately not feel like you are getting a fair shake. It would be similar to putting a hand on the bible while giving your oath of truth. I would tell him to stick his bible up his well you get the idea. Nobody is telling the judge he can’t be catholic, but we have a right to feel like we are being judged by the state not by catholic law. And his arguments further prove that you might not get a fair trial. I remember him saying that the state was founded on catholic values and that’s the way it’s going to stay. I mean come on what does that say to a muslim in that state, that their values aren’t important to the government? Not only do the commandments need to be taken out but this guy needs to go.
Vegita says “Not only do the commandments need to be taken out but this guy needs to go.”
Couldn’t disagree with you more.
Let me throw out a couple of quotes.
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments.”
James Madison, author, U.S. Constitution
“Do we wish to live in a society of self-governing individuals who behave themselves because of a consensus around some eternal truths, an absolute morality, a simple code of right and wrong uniting people of many faiths? Or, do we prefer to live under the rule of men and a system of ever-changing, always-evolving morality and subject to the whims of unaccountable judges and the fads and fashions of democracy?”
Related to the Carlin thread, maybe George has got it figured, lets replace that Ten Commandment pedestal with 10 quotes from Goodfellas
"For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It’s amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.
So I’ve been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don’t. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit’s foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat’s testicles, it’s all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself"
no offense intended. This thread begged for a little humor.
“Do we wish to live in a society of self-governing individuals who behave themselves because of a consensus around some eternal truths, an absolute morality, a simple code of right and wrong uniting people of many faiths? Or, do we prefer to live under the rule of men and a system of ever-changing, always-evolving morality and subject to the whims of unaccountable judges and the fads and fashions of democracy?”
-Joseph Farah
Thank you! This is exactly what I meant when I was saying that if all religion is taken out of government, then we no longer have those absolutes and then the government will be able to have total control. They can then make up things to take place of those absolutes that came from religion, and you know it would be liberals making up those absolutes!!
"U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson, who made the Aug. 5 order to have the monument removed by Wednesday night, has planned a telephone conference with lawyers this morning at 9 a.m. Thompson has said he will consider imposing fines against the state if Moore does not comply with the order.
Thompson ruled the monument, placed in the rotunda by Moore two years ago, violates the First Amendment’s establishment clause, which says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” "
This is what I mean. How on EARTH could a judge think that having the Ten Commandments in a court creates a LAW respecting an establishment of religion?? Is Thompson a liberal? Sure sounds like something a liberal would say.
I’m glad you disagree that is what makes our country great. Why do you wan’t me to feel like I am not as good as you because I don’t believe in your ten commandments. I don’t care if a founding father wrote that, he wrote it in a time when things were quite a bit less complex and less advanced as they are now. weren’t they still burning withces at the stake at that point? We need to change with the times or else we will slip into the past as the world races ahead of us. To this point our country is in the lead as far as advancing civilization. But that does not mean we will always be top dog. Take the roman empire for example, it was exactly the feelings you have that led to the downfall of Rome. They were not willing to let go of the past and melted away into nothing. I dream of an america of true freedom. where people don’t lie cheat steal kill or any of that bull. I also don’t practice religion because I believe it is the oldest and most primitive form of mind control. Thats my beliefs. I am spiritual in my own right, but I pay no alegiance and follow no rules that a man wrote that are supposedly from a god.
Everyone have a great weekend! were about to start one hell of a hawaiian party!
“One thing I’ve never understood though, is why do those that oppose mentioning God in any way in public get so bent out of shape about it. Is the basis for their beliefs so shallow that any mention of God or Jesus might blow their whole belief system away?”
Beowulf67,
I don’t know where you are from, but I’ve lived in Texas for most of my life. If you were at a football game on a Friday night around here and didn’t bow your head during the pregame prayer, I gaurantee you’d get hassled. If your kids were in school here expressed a belief in anything other than Jesus Christ, I promise you they would be emotionally scarred in a hurry.
I know, let’s give equal exposure to those other religions the Supreme Court recognizes as legitimate. Maybe some Santeria idols or an altar for animal sacrifice would look good in the foyer. Toss in some incense burners and Tibetan prayer wheels too. Don’t forget a gold statue of Angel Moroni. None of those things would be establishing a religion really, just recognizing they exist. Right?
About the Muslims: Muslims reject the validity of the Ten Commandments as such, as Islam teaches that the entire text of the both the Tanakh and the New Testament are false and misleading documents meant to deceive mankind from learning the true will of Allah (God). For Muslims, the true will of God is embodied only in the Quran.
I did make a mistake on the Jewish religion and the commandments. I was in a hurry and just listed the first major religions that popped into my head. I should have included the Shintos, Buddhists, all the Native American religions, Hindus, etc. etc. etc. and skipped the Jews instead, sorry. There are plenty of spiritual and moral people out there that fervently believe something other than the 10 Commandments per se. Most societies value the same things and many of those things are embodied in the commandments but the message is still that the government honors the Judeo-Christian religion the most if that’s all we see in the court houses, Senate, etc.
Imagine being a Hindu or a Native American with tradional beliefs and going to court and seeing the commandments of ol’ whitey there up front. How much justice do you think they feel like they are going to get in those marble halls?
It’s about SEPARATING State and Church. They CANNOT coexist together in a criminal justice system that claims to be Impartial to all and just to all as ours does. We have Muslims, Jews, Christians, you name it, they live here.
As such it’s of relatively great importance the court is kept separated from the 10 commandments and Impartial to the Bible. Why you ask? Because it’s people’s lives that are at stake, as well as Justice itself.
How the fuck do you pick on something that will finally put EVERYBODY on a more equal fotting at the courthouse by pointing to one of our ammendments and completely miss the whole point? Did a grey man with big black eyes tell you aboard his ship that the judges were conspiring against the ammendment? maybe they were kind enough to point out that the real reason why the judges did this was to separate state and church, and that if the 10 commandments are in the courthouse, there’s no separation?
Wow, lots of good points have been made. So here’s my 2 cents. Yes, America was founded by men who were christians and believed in the ten commandments, but you have to remember that despite that these men were willing to allow slavery to continue taking place (understandably they thought it was for the greater good but still, if you process belief in the 10 commandments, then you should be willing to believe god created MAN (as in humanity, not just us dudes) in his image. The era in which the constitution was created is infinitely different from our current time. We live in a world where many cultures and religions interact with each other on a daily basis, something not really seen back in the 1700’s. As a Christian, I personally don’t have a problem with the 10 commandments being there, b/c I have enough faith that despite the judge’s religious beliefs, he still hold’s the value of an individual in high regard, regardless of religious belief and would exercise justice indiscriminately. At the same time I strongly believe all religions are merely different branches on the same tree, with God, as he is represented by the different religions serving as the roots and trunk from which our religions have emerged. Saying that, we should respect people of other religions and not try to force our views down their throats (basically what happens when you go to that courthouse and see the 10 commandments there). If you want to put up references to God, do so, but do it in a manner that will not offend anyone’s religious beliefs (well, to do this you really couldn’t put anything there b/c of atheists and those other ones, but you get what i am saying). And please, using Islamic countries as an example of church and state combined is just stupid, so don’t do (nobody has yet, but I am guessing someone will try)
