Finding a Real Combat Class

Thanks Strang and Sento. I guess, from what you all are saying, my best bet is to sit in on a class and even pay for a few to get a feel for it.

So Miss P. what do you know about Krav Maga Federation? It seems the only school nearby to me is affiliated with them.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Sifu, krav maga’s “special” classes for cops & soldiers don’t teach techniques differently.

They teach different techniques.

Civilians generally don’t need to know how to disarm an attacker with an M16, how to clear a building, how to escape under fire with a rescued hostage, or how to disarm an attacker then restrain him without killing him until backup arrives.

While civilians are eventually taught most of these techniques, they will come much later in my training. They will come quickly in training for law enforcement officers. Well, okay, I admit I’ve done the M16 thing, but we were just jacking around that day.

I have no doubt that Gary Alexander could provide excellent training, nor am I saying that krav is “better than” Isshinryu or anything else. Far from it. But I would ask you to consider that it may be advantageous to tailor parts of the curriculum to the dangers the student is most likely to face.[/quote]

So you mean specialized firearms training. If you read his site Sensei Alexander also does firearms and bodyguard training. Besides the police acadamy will give the OP firearms training. But you don’t need to be doing firearms raining to learn gun and knife self defense. My teachers had me practicing gun disarms, knife defense, free fighting with knives, speed cuffing, they expected their students to be able to teach and pass on what they knew.

What he also needs to learn is barehanded self defense skills. From what I have seen of Krav Maga it is not up to the same level as Isshinryu in this regard, because km uses old fashioned TMA body positioning and deep stances.

[quote]Kataklysm wrote:
I agree that BJJ (vale tudo or not) is not relevant for street defense and law enforcement but I think you guys are giving too much credit to krav maga versus MMA training. I mean yeah you can disarm someone at point blank with your krav but Wanderlei Silva will just kick your face the fuck out at point blank. And about getting kicked in the crotch, if you’ve been training muay thai it’s not your first time blocking kicks or avoiding them, not to mention you have the ability to knock the guy out before he does anything. [/quote]

If someone is pointing a gun at you and you try to deal with it by trying to knock them out by kicking them in the face you deserve to get shot.

Muay Thai is a rough sport martial art but they don’t kick or use hand strikes to the groin. Just because you block kicks to other parts of the body it doesn’t teach you how to guard the groin.

Another thing with MT is one of the primary MT blocks against kicks is raising your lead leg and let him hit your knee or shin. For barefooted fighting in a gym you can break the other guys foot with this so it is effective. On the street however if the other guy is wearing steel toed combat boots with metal cleats lace up with you don’t want to take a shot in the knee. This is one of the times where sport and self defense diverge.

Another area where sport and self defense are different is in how fights start out. On the street you aren’t going to come out touch gloves then get into a guard and go at it. Instead you are going to be standing there possibly not expecting something and the other guy is just going to fire on you with no warning. This is why sparring or free fighting isn’t the only type of training you need to do for self defense. You also need to do self defense drills like one step fighting. [quote]

What I mean is, no matter how versed you are in any martial art, if your opponent is armed, you better be armed too because no type of training teaches you to disarm someone from an average/long distance. [/quote]

In America cops have guns so they are armed.

[quote]
Also, consider the fact that MMA is growing in popularity. As a cop you will surely encounter a fighter at some point, and if it comes down to full contact fighting, he will come on top for sure assuming he’s not a newbie. [/quote]

MMA is popular so it is good to know so you can counter it and there are good skills that you can learn from it. But it is a sport which you need to understand otherwise you can get yourself into problems. MMA has a narrow specialized focus.

ie MMA is honorable one on one combat so you can go into a state of tunnel vision where the sole purpose of your existance at that moment is to go through the other guy. On the street you have to have your head on a swivel, so you don’t get blindsided.

Because MMA is one on one between weight matched opponents you can trade shots like the rockem sockem robots and hopefully you will grind each other down equally. On the street you won’t be matched and you may have more than one opponent so you can’t just stand there trading punishment you have to know how to move.

[quote]strangec wrote:
Miss Parker wrote:
Sifu, krav maga’s “special” classes for cops & soldiers don’t teach techniques differently.

They teach different techniques.

Civilians generally don’t need to know how to disarm an attacker with an M16, how to clear a building, how to escape under fire with a rescued hostage, or how to disarm an attacker then restrain him without killing him until backup arrives.

While civilians are eventually taught most of these techniques, they will come much later in my training. They will come quickly in training for law enforcement officers. Well, okay, I admit I’ve done the M16 thing, but we were just jacking around that day.

I have no doubt that Gary Alexander could provide excellent training, nor am I saying that krav is “better than” Isshinryu or anything else. Far from it. But I would ask you to consider that it may be advantageous to tailor parts of the curriculum to the dangers the student is most likely to face.

I agree with Miss Parker here Sifu, there are some things that cops need to know that civilians don’t and there are some things a civilian can do that a cop would get sued for if he tried(chokes for example). I respect all MA’s and while Issin Ryu’s weapons training is outstanding, if a person is attacked by an unarmed attacker on the street and that person picks up a stick and stops the attacker by hitting them accross the temple, that’s self defense. If a cop is attacked by an unarmed attacker and he hits them across the temple with his PR 24 or ASP, he could be sued for excessive force.
For the OP, I think it’s best to check the schools out and get a feel for them, see how realistic the training is and also not only check out the attitude of the instrutor but check out the attitude of the students.

[/quote]

My teacher was a cop for twenty years, trust me I know what they have to go trough nowadays because he had a lot of experience to share.

It is generally not a good idea to hit anyone in the head with a weapon unless you really need to take them out and don’t care about killing them.

Cop or not you should have a complete skillset

[quote]ss847859 wrote:
So Miss P. what do you know about Krav Maga Federation? It seems the only school nearby to me is affiliated with them.[/quote]

I’m afraid I don’t know anything about them. I got on their website & they seem to be different in some ways than us, but their goals & principles seem to be the same. We don’t wear belts or uniforms to class, that really stood out, but ultimately is irrelevant. It seems that they come from a person who learned directly from Imi Lichtenfeld & still have close ties to Israeli schools, which is good. Who knows? I guess I’d repeat my initial advice.

Go & take a look for yourself & trust your gut. Your divemaster experience will serve you well, you know the difference between good & bad teaching principals. And as StrangC says look at the attitudes of the instructors & students. And don’t be afraid to ask why they use a particular technique if you don’t see why they do. They should be able to give you a real answer every time of how it applies in the real world.

And, wow, listen to the advice of Sentoguy & Mixicus on picking a school, whatever style you choose - and before you finish your fighting education you may well choose more than one. I did karate for 3 years & loved it. Now I do krav (+ BJJ & MMA) & expect to stay here for some time, but every style has something to offer.

I wish I had something more concrete to give you, but I’d rather be honest & admit that I just don’t. Good luck & let us know how it goes! We’re rooting for you to make it through the academy!

well if you want real pratical skills try wing chun or ving tsun both are the same.i my self have tried boxing karate hapkido tae kwon do , gave all of it up for wing chun, I personally believe its the man/women not the style butwing chun has theories and applications which is unique.be warned wing chun iis not some pretty art,9ts brutal a wc sayingn is,“our gung- fu is not handed down but pounded down”. If you have any questons just ask.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
I’ll speak for krav maga, since there’s a good chance you’ll be training in that style for at least part of your academy training. At a krav school, you’d want to know if the school is affiliated with Krav Maga Worldwide, in Los Angeles. This is the U.S. parent organization for krav, run by Darren Levine, who brought the system to the U.S. after studying under Imi Lichtenfeld, the founder, in Israel.

The school you visit should offer classes for law enforcement and/or military personnel, and those classes should be separate from classes for civilians, though many of the techniques are the same. If a school does not offer this, as mine does, it doesn’t mean the school is not good, but it may not completely serve your needs as a policeman.

Cop classes get into weapons training more quickly than civilian classes do, but your teachers need a special certification to teach it.

Ask to watch a regular level 1 class before signing up. Is it physically challenging? The warmup alone in krav can be exhausting. Are the students expected to give their all, or are they allowed to phone it in? I don’t mean everyone should perform perfectly - I mean everyone should be expected to try hard at all times.

Most level 1 classes will end with “self-defense”, which at this level usually means chokes. The drill at the end should look intense and a little bit scary to someone unused to fighting.

Krav classes are usually overwhelmingly male, but don’t be put off if you see “a bunch of fat moms”. They are there (or should be) to learn to fight, just like the boys are.

Also, google the name of the school you are considering. Sometimes you will find local reviews or testimonials that might help. Feel free to PM me with any questions and good luck at the academy![/quote]

KRAV MAGA simply kicks ass. I love it because everything you learn can be used the minute you walk out the studio door. (not ot say you’ll be an expert,)but it’s all applicable in the real world.
Workouts will leave you huffing and puffing and every muscle will burn.

Alot of people in our class have often taken other forms of martial arts and simply love this stuff.
I once took a class that combined kung fu and tai chi (no not the old lady stuff,) and that was awesome as well, but Krav trumps all.
If it’s good enough for the Israeli Defense Forces, it’ll be good enough for you. Try it out. It won’t disappoint.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

If someone is pointing a gun at you and you try to deal with it by trying to knock them out by kicking them in the face you deserve to get shot.

Muay Thai is a rough sport martial art but they don’t kick or use hand strikes to the groin. Just because you block kicks to other parts of the body it doesn’t teach you how to guard the groin.

Another thing with MT is one of the primary MT blocks against kicks is raising your lead leg and let him hit your knee or shin. For barefooted fighting in a gym you can break the other guys foot with this so it is effective. On the street however if the other guy is wearing steel toed combat boots with metal cleats lace up with you don’t want to take a shot in the knee. This is one of the times where sport and self defense diverge.

[/quote]

Well the kick in the face was kind of a joke, but how hard really is it for a BJJ trainee to just wrist control the guy at point blank and stay out of the line of fire? It’s not much different from what krav teaches you.

And about groin kicks, they’re very predictable because they’re just like soccer kicks. I just think that when you’ve been training any form of striking martial art you’re good enough at avoiding shots to dodge a random guy’s soccer kick.

If the guy fires on you with no warning there’s not much you can do anyway! And about cops having guns, that doesn’t really bring much to krav vs mma.

[quote]
MMA is popular so it is good to know so you can counter it and there are good skills that you can learn from it. But it is a sport which you need to understand otherwise you can get yourself into problems. MMA has a narrow specialized focus.

ie MMA is honorable one on one combat so you can go into a state of tunnel vision where the sole purpose of your existance at that moment is to go through the other guy. On the street you have to have your head on a swivel, so you don’t get blindsided.

Because MMA is one on one between weight matched opponents you can trade shots like the rockem sockem robots and hopefully you will grind each other down equally. On the street you won’t be matched and you may have more than one opponent so you can’t just stand there trading punishment you have to know how to move.[/quote]

Well I see where you’re going but I disagree I think you’re underestimating mma. It IS in fact a sport, but alot of the techniques are inspired from self defense systems. Muay thai was used by military personnel in thailand, BJJ is a potent self defense system also and it is shown at the army combatives school.

I’m just playing devil’s advocate here because I know that krav maga is in fact very lethal and much better for street fighting than mma, I’m just trying to give some credit to other martial arts because I am convinced that you can defend yourself fine in most situations as a mixed fighter.

[quote]chilco wrote:
Miss Parker wrote:
I’ll speak for krav maga, since there’s a good chance you’ll be training in that style for at least part of your academy training. At a krav school, you’d want to know if the school is affiliated with Krav Maga Worldwide, in Los Angeles.

This is the U.S. parent organization for krav, run by Darren Levine, who brought the system to the U.S. after studying under Imi Lichtenfeld, the founder, in Israel.

The school you visit should offer classes for law enforcement and/or military personnel, and those classes should be separate from classes for civilians, though many of the techniques are the same.

If a school does not offer this, as mine does, it doesn’t mean the school is not good, but it may not completely serve your needs as a policeman.

Cop classes get into weapons training more quickly than civilian classes do, but your teachers need a special certification to teach it.

Ask to watch a regular level 1 class before signing up. Is it physically challenging? The warmup alone in krav can be exhausting. Are the students expected to give their all, or are they allowed to phone it in? I don’t mean everyone should perform perfectly - I mean everyone should be expected to try hard at all times.

Most level 1 classes will end with “self-defense”, which at this level usually means chokes. The drill at the end should look intense and a little bit scary to someone unused to fighting.

Krav classes are usually overwhelmingly male, but don’t be put off if you see “a bunch of fat moms”. They are there (or should be) to learn to fight, just like the boys are.

Also, google the name of the school you are considering. Sometimes you will find local reviews or testimonials that might help. Feel free to PM me with any questions and good luck at the academy!

KRAV MAGA simply kicks ass. I love it because everything you learn can be used the minute you walk out the studio door. (not ot say you’ll be an expert,)but it’s all applicable in the real world.
Workouts will leave you huffing and puffing and every muscle will burn.

Alot of people in our class have often taken other forms of martial arts and simply love this stuff.

I once took a class that combined kung fu and tai chi (no not the old lady stuff,) and that was awesome as well, but Krav trumps all.
If it’s good enough for the Israeli Defense Forces, it’ll be good enough for you. Try it out. It won’t disappoint.

its the man/woman not the style so you cant say krav maga trumps all .wing chun is taught to navy seals but that doesnt make them any better than someone who trains to fight.everyone believes there styles superior to another.

i can tell you wing chun andkrav maga go hand and hand in theory and applications , drills used in krav maga are wing chun drill thats been used for the last 300 years but that besides the point take two average joes trained in both arts for two years who knows who would win,fighting unpredictable , ihave witnessed both and both systems not styles will produce a badass fighters bottomline.

One thing that people tend to forget in these discussions is that the original purpose of mixing martial arts (or cross training) was that most “traditional” arts (and I’d include arts like wrestling, boxing, MT, BJJ into this category) have holes in their games; or at least have weak(er) areas.

So, people started cross training in other systems that filled the gaps in their own system. Bruce Lee, although not the first probably the most well known, basically made this one of the core principles behind his JKD. “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not (regardless of where it comes from)”.

People get this original concept confused with the sport of MMA and think that a “Mixed Martial Arts” school means that they only focus on sporting contexts. This in fact is not the case. The school/style I train(ed) in was absolutely a “Mixed Martial Art”, but it’s primary focus was on real world self defense. Again, instructors do this because other non mixed styles don’t cover the full range of combat sufficiently.

Krav Maga, Tony Blauer’s S.P.E.A.R system (Chu Fen Do) and others specifically designed for law enforcement/military use are very streamlined arts. They’re all about teaching simple, usually natural reaction based movements that can be quickly and easily reproduced in a high stress environment.

When you think about it this makes perfect sense, as instructors may have a matter of months, not years or decades, to teach their students how to survive. Therefore you want quick, easy to learn techniques.

So it’s very good for the purpose it was designed for. But it’s far from a complete art, so it might be far from ideal for use in other contexts (like sport MMA).

Arts like Wing Chun are all about close quaters combat (trapping range). They are very good at using angles and body alignment/structure to gain the advantage over a larger, stronger opponent. It’s also a very aggressive style and is all about attacking. Again, very good at the purpose it was designed for.

But, it isn’t very good for gap fighting (fighting from a distance), or ground fighting.

Arts like Jiu-Jitsu are all about joint locks and controlling your opponent. Very good if you wish to win without doing serious damage and getting sued (good for law enforcement in this way). It also makes handcuffing a perp much easier. Of course if worse comes to worse, they can also result in serious damage to the joints. There are numerous styles (Yoshitsune, Small Circle, BJJ, etc…) and while there is carry over between them, they all generally have specific focuses.

But it’s not a great striking art.

Arts like Muay Thai are great for kicking, controlling the opponent with a clinch and kneeing and elbowing. It’s also a very tough, rough art and involves a lot of conditioning/toughening the body.

It’s hand/punching skills tend to be rather primative (compared to western boxing) though and there isn’t any ground fighting and/or grappling taught.

Arts like Kali, Arnis, and Kendo are all good weapons based arts. But their empty hands skills generally aren’t up to the same level (if even existent) as empty hands focused arts.

What I’m getting at again is that it’s very, very difficult to find a school/art that teaches a truly full spectrum of combative skills (all at high levels). And the only ones that I know of that do are schools/arts that have mixed other arts (thus filling in all potential holes in the various arts).

But whether or not this matters again, comes down to why you are training.

sento guy i completly agree with you but there is one thing ,you were correct saying wing chun is close range, however you probobly never heard this yip man knew a long bridge system of ving tsun and only taught one of his formal disciples duncan leung, its very similar to using the pole.thanks for your input.

[quote]vt beserk wrote:
sento guy i completly agree with you but there is one thing ,you were correct saying wing chun is close range, however you probobly never heard this yip man knew a long bridge system of ving tsun and only taught one of his formal disciples duncan leung, its very similar to using the pole.thanks for your input.[/quote]

Interesting. Hadn’t heard of this actually. Good to know. :slight_smile:

Also, vt, do you think could could edit your last response to chilco/missp’s posts? I’d like to read what you wrote, but I don’t want to have to keep going back and forth between your post and the one you responded to in order to figure out what you wrote and what you were responding to.

If you don’t know how the “quoting” system works, here it is in a nutshell.

If I want to “quote” something, then I will write the word "quote before it and surround “quote” with a [ on one side and a ] on the other.

Then, when I want the “quote” to stop so that I can respond. I will write “/quote” and again surround it with brackets ([ on one side, ] on the other).

Every time you want to “quote” something do this. Also, preview your posts to make sure that the “quote” system worked properly. If not, go back and figure out why.

/hijack

thanks sento guy i was curious as to how qoutes worked i will post again on that subject in a min.

So sento guy wanted me to edit a post how bout another post.look over to the left thats me on the left and look i have wrestling shoes on so what, no that guy on the doesnt teach wrestling he teaches wing chun matter a fact hes yip man’s nephews son so what, i may never or be better than bruce lee or whoever else he taught.look at my shirt its dark green actually its sweat some guy posted in his classes they huff and puff and there muscles burn during krav maga class well i hope any class you take that happens thats nothing unique to krav maga.

what i do and who i am is not important what’s important is you train hard in whatever you choose , if you think your style to me its system is better than another which everyone believe s than go challenge other systems and win and if you win so what its the man not the style[system] it does i hope give you reactions that work that hel you win iit does im hopin give you theory that will help but without you its nothing .

i could go on and on on weakness of other systems like boxers cant kick wrestlers can only wrestle one person jiu jitsu guys take you down while 5 other guys are stompiin your head out wing chun guys weakness is there back and ground that why i take combat submission wrestling ,or krav magas a big salad bowl mixed together and the lack off mastery leads to sloppy mechanics you can be a master of everything , tae kwon do guys can kick your head off but will never hit you cuz they train to miss i took it for 5 years unfortunately hapkido throws dont work or akido dont work unless somebody’s cooperation .

some guy named sifu on here at T-Nation does karate how bout sensi ass, groin kick are predictable like soccer kicks come on i kick to the chode bet you wouldnt predict that ass, krav maga taught to police and israel s army so what , wing chun taught to navy seals so what, only kids do karate and tae kwon do so what ,everyones got to be a badass, why am i blogging i should be training i should post this in every combat sports blog,cuz this what everybody s argues ate about when they should be training.

why kick tonhead of a standing opponent when your foot is closer to the knee and your hands are closer to their face , how bout i throw a haymaker at your foot, thats wing chun principle , box a fighter fight a boxer, i could go on forever and ever i still didnt get everything off my chest.

you cant master everything