T Nation

Finasteride and Testosterone Quesion


#1

I use test cypionate at 400-500 mg/week and have had good results. Tempted to up the dose. I have also been using finasteride at about 1mg per day to rpevent DHT related hair loss. I am not sure whether this is necessary or not. Question: DO you guys who use testosterone use finasteride routinely and if you dont, how often do you notice hair loss? I suspect it doesnt happen to everyone or most, or am i wrong? The other question is does inhibition of conversion to DHT rob one of the benefits of testosterone; i mean, are there positive effects of DHT as far as muscle building, libido etc, that i am robbing myself of by using finasteride. Thanks in advance. Love to hear your experience about this issue


#2

Hi,

I've sufferred pretty badly from hairloss since puberty, but most rapidly during my early 20s.

I used minox, nizoral, and dutasteride, and ended up really fucking up my endocrine system at one point.

I managed to bring all that in line with SERMS and proviron, so i was feeling normal again. I definetly think you have to be careful with DHT blockers, because they seriously impede muscle development and sexual arousal. Still they worked for what they did, and slowed down and even regrew a little of my hair.

I finished a two week cycle of 50mg test suspension (split dose) a day and 50mg anavar a day and have only suffered a small amount of hairloss. Not major shedding... yet.

Just to be on the safe side, on my 3week off period i'm going to use 1mg finasteride evero other day. This fin is MUCH safer than a more powerful DHT blocker like Dutasteride. And i reckon 0.5mg a day is tolerable since i've still got high testoserone and low estrogen in my system. Hopefully this, with the minox and the nizoral(ketaconazole) shampoo i can keep the hair folicles alive, and possibly even regrow some.

I have some spirolacotone(sp) on order which comes in a cream. This, at a low dose concentrates its DHT-blocking directly on the scalp and largely leaves the rest of your body alone. I hope that this will allow me to keep the DHT in my body high-normal, because it really is a MASCULISING hormone. And great for muscle building, strength, and sexuality.

Will start my next two-week cycle in three weeks, cos this last want went GREAT.


#3

I used Propecia/finasteride for awhile before I ever did a cycle. I wasn't going bald, but my hair was thinning (from growing it longer) and I didn't want to take any chances. I eventually stopped taking it and my hair remained the same. Before I did my last cycle I made sure to have some on hand- and I took it for the first two weeks, but decided to stop taking it to see if it was even necessary. Sure enough, nothing happened. I'm in the middle of a cycle right now and I'm not taking any.

Honestly, I'd wait to see if you even need it before taking it. If you start to lose some, finasteride can grow it back, so it's not like all hope is lost by that point.


#4

Problem is whatever grows back from using it generally will fall back out once you discontinue use, if I remember correctly.


#5

Finasteride will not regrow hair. Not in the same way minoxidil does. Finasteride is best used in a preventative mode, and at the dose the OP is taking test that EDIT--might possibly be used in the 3-5mg/day range. Finasteride does not completely block the production of DHT so there is a level beyond which it will not stem the tide. I believe that it stands at about 77% or so DHT inhibition at 5mg daily. That's off the top of my head though so I am not sure if it is entirely accurate.


#6

Spironolactone does not block DHT in the same sense that finasteride does. Spironolactone is an ANTI-ANDROGEN that binds with the androgen receptor. Finasteride inhibits the actual production of DHT from testosterone.

This does however mean that spironolactone would likely be at least partly useful where non-test derivative steroids are used such as masteron or trenbolone.

I have heard the same claims that topical spironolactone has no systemic circulation but acts strictly locally. I cannot confirm that and I don't know if it is true or not, but if it is true then that makes it very useful.

Finasteride does NOT appreciably hamper muscle gains due to its actions preventing DHT synthesis. It may however have some sexual arousal sides. DHT is far inferior to Test as far as muscle building grows. It is true that it binds the AR with greater affinity than Test but that does not translate into greater muscle building potential. Sorry, it's been studied before.


#7

Thanks, guys. I am going to try to stay off it just to see if i see any major difference.

Another question:

Apart from getting an estradiol level, should i use any SERM or anti-estrojgen? As i said, i use around 400-500 g a week: i have zero gynecomastia, no water retention. Do you guys recommend using those empirically based on the above physical symptoms or is it a good idea as a matter of routine to use them anyway?


#8

AIs are better on cycle, SERM for PCT. You dont want to wait until estro gets too high, freaking sucks. Well at least for me if I let my estro levels get high I usually become quite moody/depressed/paranoid. Use something like Adex on cycle and Nolva post, should keep you happy happy.


#9

LOL- why would he have to take 5mg of finasteride a day for 500mg Test/wk? If he were taking Propecia, it'd probably end up being cheaper to just get a hair transplant.
500mg/Test is on the low end and I've never seen anyone recommend more than 1mg/fin a day regardless of the amount of gear taken.

And finasteride DOES regrow hair. It sounds like you haven't even taken it. I know a guy who was over 50% bald at age 21, now takes it religiously, and has a full head of hair. Your thoughts?


#10

Weel,Toby i dont take 5 mg. Only 1 mg which is what has been shown to have the hair loss protection. I am glad to hear from you and others that it is probably not necessary;thats why i am going to stop taking it.

So one more question, if you dont mind. In relation to the Arimidex, how much should i take? I have seen every dose on here, from every day to every other day to once a week. Would someone please help this novice out and advise me on how much Arimidex and how often? And can i expect to see more gains just from that in addition to the test cyp i am taking? It seems as though i had significant changes when i first started but even though i am working out hard, i have plateaued. As i wrote above, i ahev no water retention, no gynecomastia; could it still be estrogen related stunting and is it likely, in your experience, that adding Arimidex during the cycle will help? Thanks in advance.


#11

It really depends on the individual, could do .25mg ED or .5 EOD, really you can always up the dosage if youre feeling the estro effects, so if you find .25mg ED doesnt do it for you try .5 and see how it works. Everyones different so theres no one solid answer that will work for everybody all the time.


#12

Firstly, just because you've never heard of anyone recommend more than 1mg/fin a day doesn't mean it isn't recommended, or that those people recommending only 1 mg a day aren't wrong in the first place. Proscar is the brand name and it is 5mg fin tablets. It is made in 5mg tablets and also meant to be dosed in up to 5 mg tablets. Broscience does not equal real science. I went back and did some reading--5 mg daily use of finasteride for up to 4 years has been shown to reduce DHT levels by approximately 70%, not 77%.

Therefore if you are interested in hair regrowth, you'd remain at normal physiological levels of test and use between 1 and 5mg fin daily depending on your docs recommendations.

If you are interested in prevention during a steroid cycle then I would suggest using the high end, as you are jacking testosterone levels up to 3x or more than natural levels. For the sake of easy math we will simply assume a normal individual makes 100mg/week of test naturally. Using 5mg proscar means a 70% inhibition rate, which means the amount of DHT created is roughly equivalent to the amount of 30 mg/week of test. 500 mg/test and 70% inhibition rate leaves the individual at about 150 mg/week equivalent, or slightly above normal natural production but well below the levels seen if it were not used. 1mg/day is of course far better than nothing, but its effects will not be as significant as 5mg dosing.

For those academics keeping score, I'm quite well aware of how ridiculous my math and numbers are, I'm simply trying to illustrate the general point using basic numbers and math.

Expense is not my concern, I'm simply responding to the science.

Finally, finasteride does not act at the hair follicle and cause direct hair growth. It encourages it via decreasing serum DHT levels so that miniaturization of the follicle does not occur, or (perhaps) reversed. So yes, I should have probably been more precise in my comment about finasteride not regrowing hair. However, it DOES NOT act at the hair follicle. To date, the only compound believed to act directly is minoxidil.


#13

It's not broscience you condescending douchebag, it's the opinion of a handful of dermatologists, my own experience (as well as my friends) and I'm pretty sure Bill Roberts recommended 1mg/day as well. He's weighed in on this multiple times and can clarify- and I guarantee you do not know more than him.

Furthermore, who are you to claim that 1mg/day ISN'T recommended? What are your credentials? Who do you know that's recommending 5mg a day? I've taken proscar as well and the reason it comes in 5mg tabs is not 'solely because it's recommended at 5mg a day'. I'm quite certain the majority of people taking proscar are taking a 1.25mg/day dosage.


#14

D00d! 5mg is WAY too much.

You will fuck up your libido and cause increased estrogen in your body.

Futhermore - its not just the action of DHT at the ARs in the scalp - Testosterone also binds to the AR and causes hairloss.

I would not recommend anyone taking more than 0.5mg of that shit a day (i'd prefer 0.25mg to be honest) only increasing it to 1mg ON CYCLE (IF necessary) and then using other stuff to keep/grow your hair i.e. minox, nizoral, spiro.

And yes i know spiro doesn't block the conversion of DHT, but it does block the DHT from binding to the androgen receptor and it also blocks the testosterone binding to the AR.

And also, systemic absorption is likely - so use with caution. But it "mainly" acts at the scalp, so if used with a bit of intelligencce you wont witness any feminising effects from it (like wot oral spiro would do).

There are better resources for this info than this site you should consider - but from a guy who juices perspective, i'm pretty happy with my protocol i listed above.

U also have various other options which include fluridil, RU etc... But there the cost to benefit ratio nose-dives.


#15

I never said 1mg/day isn't recommended. AT ALL. Read a bit more carefully next time. I simply said that 5mg/day can also be recommended adn that 1mg/day is not the ONLY recommendation. And has been. There are long term clinical studies on it, even if that recommendation may not be used often. The majority of people do take 1-1.25 mg/day. I simply said I would consider going on the higher side if running a test cycle. I do not mean using 5mg always, so I suppose i should have been more careful in my word choice and used "consider" instead.

Let me clarify then, right now---I would consider using the higher end of the dose curve if running a cycle of testosterone. This would be subject to more reading of course, and one's own personal judgment of how they feel at other doses, etc.

Bill's a very smart guy, and I respect him very much. And as far as medicinal chemistry goes I tip my hat to him and generally speaking I also take his recommendations over what I'm thinking precisely because of his expertise in that area. However, he is neither infallible nor omniscient and I can think of one case at least in which I believe him to be very wrong. However that particular case is not something I will discuss on the open board. I am capable of making my own decisions since I am also academically trained in biochemistry. I can send you a copy of my master's thesis if you would like.


#16

For the record, I know at least a couple people very close to me that have taken 3-5mg fin per day and their libido and estrogen levels have been fine on cycle, although this may not be the case for everyone and they were using adex properly.

I agree that test also binds the AR and causes hair loss. Most people are worried more about DHT though since its binding affinity is 4x or so as strong as T's, but you make a good point. I also really agree that you would be best to use minoxidil and spiro (topically only) if on cycle. These at least can be used if on a non-test cycle as well, which is very nice.

The issue on systemic circulation isn't clear to me yet, I can think of at least 1 article that claims spiro used topically did not result in systemic circulation (it was a dermatology journal article dealing with acne), but I do not know that to be the case. As it is an anti-androgen, systemic circulation would be superbad for us guys.


#17

Topical spiro sounds great in theory, but god damn does it smell like a skunk! The bottle I had would smell up my whole room.


#18

ha yeah, spiro is STINKY. Like rotting fish.


#19

Adex: take 1.0mg/week in EOD dosing for every 100mg aromatizing gear per week. Taper off of adex as you taper off of gear, with a 1 week lag as T clears, down to 0.5mg/week and stay on that through PCT and for a few weeks past PCT. Remember that SERMs INCREASE E production and levels, which would increase adex requirements during PCT for some.

Understand the issues of anastrozole over-responders.

Always taper off of SERMs.

Gyno is when things are horribly wrong. Your objective should be optimized E levels.


#20

KSman--why not everyday adex? Assuming of course the gear dose is high enough.