Finally Got It - 'Loose' Form is Good

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

Sometimes it can be easy to go the opposite way though when you first discover something (just a heads up). Like shaving 1cm each time you lift and calling that progress :slight_smile:

The best way I’ve heard it said is you do the muscle ROM, not the joint. So while you may be able to pull your body up further during a pullup, it may be putting your biceps into it further and back out of it. The joint ROM may be 100%, but back ROM may stop somewhere towards the top (and maybe same towards the bottom).

You still are trying to keep good tension on the target muscle though, it’s nothing to do with “cheating” via excessive swinging/bouncing etc. Using loose form as an excuse to lift more weight despite crappy stimulation to target muscle is just as bad as being excessively anal about form.

22

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
When one reaches a certain lvl, yea id say loose form can have its advantaged. But at the early to moderate stages, id still argue that one should stress form.

I cant say that i like this thread, simply because its going to give a lot of newbs that read these boards the impression that not fully extending their arm and swinging their entire body in an attempt to curl a weight is perfectly acceptable.

Truth is, there are three types of form- Bad form, Good form, and Perfect form.

Bad form is you not knowing what youre doing. It is you shortening ranges, contorting body parts, and essentially wasting space in a gym.

Good form is text book form. Self explanatory.

Perfect form is what is ideal for you. It changes with the person. It fits your body type and your needs to give you the best possible firing in a muscle. This is developed through years of training and experience and takes a bit more understanding of THE body and YOUR body.

Chances are, most people should stick to Good form for a few more years before they attempt to bend the form rules.

[/quote]

I tend to agree with this comment.

I’m also a lot more “strict” with my form now that I’m at a more advanced stage than I ever was before. For me, loose form generally means the MMC is not as strong and you are not feeling the muscle work the entirety of the movement, it becomes a game of momentum. I guess I believe that a good stretch and squeeze is imperative to have in every exercise, especially something like back training. Doesn’t mean I won’t go as heavy as possible but I don’t use much body english anymore.[/quote]

i was going to same the same thing (although im not at that stage yet). i think X has said the same thing. body english seems to help bust through plateaus and helps you learn to handle heavier weight but at some point when the weight is heavy enough there seems to be more reason to actually use that weight for quality reps instead of heaving. but i think it applies at both ends of the spectrum, the very strong and the very weak seem to need to watch form a little bit more.

23

I really don’t think you can base how tight your form should be just based on experience level (obviously though, a complete beginner should stick to relatively tight form). However, I feel like you need a certain experience level to know what does work for you.

I think it comes down more to your biomechanics, and more importantly, what you feel working for you.

Example: Waylander has a impressive physique, and obviously know hows to build his back,
but on the opposite end of the spectrum (as far as more experience people should use tighter form) is H4M, who does heavy ass BB rows with form that probably puts youtube commenters into a frenzy but he has built a damn thick back doing so.

24

The way I see/do it is on your lighter ramp up sets you will pretty much use perfect “textbook” form and on your heavier all out sets you can let your form get a little looser within reason. Adds another element of progression to work on being able to “master” that heavier weight and handle it with better form while increasing reps before you move up the next increment in weight.

25

Congrats on your revelation, and good luck!

26

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
The way I see/do it is on your lighter ramp up sets you will pretty much use perfect “textbook” form and on your heavier all out sets you can let your form get a little looser within reason. Adds another element of progression to work on being able to “master” that heavier weight and handle it with better form while increasing reps before you move up the next increment in weight. [/quote]

This is what I have been doing. Best of both worlds. I feel that the "loose form allows for heavier weight especially if someone is not really strong yet. Once someone works their strength level up focus should be on getting better contractions. (not saying you should loose the MMC on the looser form heavier reps.)

27

btw, does my form look like cheating/very loose? That’s why I posted the vids. Especially for the curls. I can curl some 20-30% more with this form and do a strict negative, compared to starting with the body vertical and elbow in full extension. For rowing…probably the same, compared to slow motion and 2 second hold at the top (I could hold the weight at the top, but I don’t know if this actually has any sense).

Since I never had results with curls… maybe it doesn’t make that much sense to limit your weight to the weakest 20 or so degrees of concentric ROM… And, going by the “human body was designed to not use muscles in isolation” logic, I’d say big weights with not 100% strict form is a lot more “natural” for the body.

Most/all big guys who curl >60 lb/hand lean forward, use momentum, don’t squeeze at the top, go fast on the negative…and if one (say, I, when I thought that for a curl to “work” your bis it must be text-book form), dares criticize them:“what, you think he got big by accident?” - common sense, he didn’t; yeah, genetics matter, and so do steroids.
I’ve yet to see a strict 90 lb DB curl… (edit: I did see a Turk do a few really heavy curls with strict form…but that’s the exception)

[note: despite this having been posted on the BB forum, I’m a powerlifter/strength athlete/strength aficionado, I care first and foremost about strength]

28

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
btw, does my form look like cheating/very loose? That’s why I posted the vids.

[note: despite this having been posted on the BB forum, I’m a powerlifter/strength athlete/whatever, I care first and foremost about strength]
[/quote]

No it looks fine (if that’s “loose form”, your strict form must be really anal). This seems obsessive now though, just do it lol

Personally, compound movements are where I use altered ROM/leaning on. For isolation exercises, my form/tension tends to be more strict (e.g. curls done seated and slow).

If powerlifting is your prime goal, explosive/intense movements are what you’re looking for, not slow and controlled (which IMO you are doing in your so called “sloppy form” videos).

29

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Personally, compound movements are where I use altered ROM/leaning on. For isolation exercises, my form/tension tends to be more strict (e.g. curls done seated and slow).
[/quote]

Slow on the concentric? I just don’t see the point of doing anything slow on the concentric. Slow down on some exercises but always as explosive as possible up for me.

30

if its loose, you should go hard and fast.

31

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
btw, does my form look like cheating/very loose? That’s why I posted the vids. Especially for the curls. I can curl some 20-30% more with this form and do a strict negative, compared to starting with the body vertical and elbow in full extension. For rowing…probably the same, compared to slow motion and 2 second hold at the top (I could hold the weight at the top, but I don’t know if this actually has any sense).

Since I never had results with curls… maybe it doesn’t make that much sense to limit your weight to the weakest 20 or so degrees of concentric ROM… And, going by the “human body was designed to not use muscles in isolation” logic, I’d say big weights with not 100% strict form is a lot more “natural” for the body.

Most/all big guys who curl >60 lb/hand lean forward, use momentum, don’t squeeze at the top, go fast on the negative…and if one (say, I, when I thought that for a curl to “work” your bis it must be text-book form), dares criticize them:“what, you think he got big by accident?”
I’ve yet to see a strict 90 lb DB curl…

[note: despite this having been posted on the BB forum, I’m a powerlifter/strength athlete/strength aficionado, I care first and foremost about strength]
[/quote]
A bodybuilder uses the weight to make his muscles grow bigger, a powerlifter uses his muscles to lift the weight. I think there is some overlap, but they are different goals. Looking at your videos/pics, I think you just need to eat more and be patient, you are on the right path, don’t over think everything.

32

[quote]bwhitwell wrote:

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
btw, does my form look like cheating/very loose? That’s why I posted the vids. Especially for the curls. I can curl some 20-30% more with this form and do a strict negative, compared to starting with the body vertical and elbow in full extension. For rowing…probably the same, compared to slow motion and 2 second hold at the top (I could hold the weight at the top, but I don’t know if this actually has any sense).

Since I never had results with curls… maybe it doesn’t make that much sense to limit your weight to the weakest 20 or so degrees of concentric ROM… And, going by the “human body was designed to not use muscles in isolation” logic, I’d say big weights with not 100% strict form is a lot more “natural” for the body.

Most/all big guys who curl >60 lb/hand lean forward, use momentum, don’t squeeze at the top, go fast on the negative…and if one (say, I, when I thought that for a curl to “work” your bis it must be text-book form), dares criticize them:“what, you think he got big by accident?”
I’ve yet to see a strict 90 lb DB curl…

[note: despite this having been posted on the BB forum, I’m a powerlifter/strength athlete/strength aficionado, I care first and foremost about strength]
[/quote]
A bodybuilder uses the weight to make his muscles grow bigger, a powerlifter uses his muscles to lift the weight. I think there is some overlap, but they are different goals. Looking at your videos/pics, I think you just need to eat more and be patient, you are on the right path, don’t over think everything.[/quote]

Agreed, and X2 on PATIENCE. You’re doing well.

Do you have goals? As in written down, Specific, Measureable, Attainable, Results-based, Time-based goals? These may help. There’s a range of different philosophies used to reach the same ends (see Haney/Yates/Mentzer etc etc all with their own theories). If you have goals, the test these new techniques such as looser form and see if they are speeding up your progress to reach your goals, after a set period of time. If they do, that’s good

33

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Personally, compound movements are where I use altered ROM/leaning on. For isolation exercises, my form/tension tends to be more strict (e.g. curls done seated and slow).
[/quote]

Slow on the concentric? I just don’t see the point of doing anything slow on the concentric. Slow down on some exercises but always as explosive as possible up for me.
[/quote]

Yeah that’s what I do, it’s usually a little explosive up, but for certain exercises controlled/slow down (may not look slow, but I am controlling it). Almost like you’re just trying to get the load up (cheat/explode it up) so you can fight it on the way down.

Not saying other ways are wrong; some people do a more “rhythmic” tempo, I just prefer that one ^

34

Yeah, it doesn’t matter how it looks like, what others think etc. The only thing that matters is if brings (optimal/better) results.

I find it makes SO much sense to use a little swing at the bottom for curls and triceps extension, and pretty much any exercise (or, use bands/chains/accommodating resistance); wonder how 3/4 chins are going to be. Since I can lift >20% if I "swing" the first quarter...third of the movement (at least on curls); using anal form would mean I'd be using less weight than I could for at least 5/6* of the movement, and thus cut my gains short. (IN THEORY)

Also, you still work the bottom ROM with about as much: higher weight + some momentum vs. light weight and no momentum, and also a strict negative.

*(2/3 of the concentric and 3/3 of the eccentric…yeah, I know that one can do negatives with a lot more than he can lift).

As for tempo, it’ll be a long time till/if I’ll revert to 4 second negatives…

Health,
Eisen

35

I just don’t think this over-calculated loose form is really necessary. It is more organic than that. The goal is like bwhitwell said, to use the weight to make your muscles bigger. Sometimes that means you use a little hip sway to get a few extra reps on bicep curls, but it’s more a feel than saying “today I am going to the gym and hip swaying the first 2/6 of the bicep curl and using my biceps for the latter 4/6” or whatever.

Just to reiterate, I feel it is more not letting super anal form to get in the way of stressing a muscle, than it is this super calculated loose form.

36

Neah…it’s just that my form was uber-anal from years of reading “don’t ever cheat don’t ever cheat” and getting it ingrained. Seems it didn’t take long to lose this idea…

Exactly, this feels organic. Super-strict form doesn’t (on isolation exercise, at least)