T Nation

Fighting Against Low Guard/Philly Shell Defense?

So I’ve been sparring against someone who uses this defense. Were both orthodox fighters. Most of the time we spend circling eachother, fighting for angles. I have the slight reach advantage, and I always initiate the exchanges.

However, hes very fast, and pretty much relies on counterpunching. His defense is tight and it seems I only have sucess against him when hes tired. Anyone box against people who use this defense? Any advice?

[quote]Shadow_Boxer wrote:
So I’ve been sparring against someone who uses this defense. Were both orthodox fighters. Most of the time we spend circling eachother, fighting for angles. I have the slight reach advantage, and I always initiate the exchanges.

However, hes very fast, and pretty much relies on counterpunching. His defense is tight and it seems I only have sucess against him when hes tired. Anyone box against people who use this defense? Any advice? [/quote]

If he allows you to initiate the action, then use “attack by drawing”. Basically, fake to draw his counter punch, but stay just out of range of his strikes. Then counter his counter. Especially if he’s got good defense, one of the best times to hit him is when he is throwing an attack, because his defense will be weakened at that moment.

Of course, you don’t always throw fakes first, as he’ll quickly learn not to react to the fake and wait for the real attack. So, you’ll want to mix up simple direct attacks (attacks with no preliminary motions, like fakes) with the ABD attacks. This will keep him guessing, slow down his reaction time, and should give you the advantage.

Tiring him out is probably another good plan. Fatigue is one way to effectively nullify a person’s speed advantage.

Never sparred against someone who used the philly shell, but it seems like the guys who know how to use it are fucking ridiculous.

I’d have to agree with Sento’s statements- if the guy is hard to hit, you’re going to have to wait for him to open up and counterpunch him, otherwise he’ll just parry and pick off all your shots.

Ring generalship is your friend in tiring him out… although you never want to depend on the other guy to tire out.

I like to push guys who use this guard into the ropes and then use a lot of left hooks to the body and head in combinations. The occasional overhand right works well (assuming they are orthodox stance).

[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
I like to push guys who use this guard into the ropes and then use a lot of left hooks to the body and head in combinations. The occasional overhand right works well (assuming they are orthodox stance).[/quote]

I tend to do that as well…usually an overhand right followed up with left uppercut to open his guard up.

To the original poster- what kind of fighter are you? You a boxer, a banger, a swarmer?

The type of fight that you like to fight may have something to do with the kind of fight you want to get into with this guy.

Ever tried the tyson combo. Don’;t know if he really threw it, but that is what our MT instructor calls it.

Snap a jab, a little high.
then a full step hard right cross to xyphoid process(very bottom of the sternum), burrying shoulder in a full follow through.
throw a tight left uppercut sliding it straight up the sternum(explosive)
The wide right hook to the head, wide left hook to the head and cirle off right, tight maybe be able to snap a straight right cross as you cirle off.

Throw it a couple times, if you notice they cover the body well don’t hurt your fist on the elbow with the hard right to the body just use it as an entrance for the uppercut.

a good follow up combo to throw em off is jab to looping overhand right( ala rashad/lidel) bitchslap left hook.

I don’t know if that makes sense, but would work at opening him up, and very hard to counter since your head should be burried with the upper cuts and hooks. and if you aren’t orthodox reverse the hands.

also counter punchers thrive on you throwing short combos and stopping or standing there. change the pace of your combinations, double and triple up on punches. like jab half step cross, full cross.

then circle, cross, left hook left hook, left uppercut. doubling and tripling up is a great way to throw off a counter striker, I would know it is one of my strong suites.

I like to sit in the pocket stay engaged and read combinations and time strikes.

Would have to agree with Sento on using fakes to get them to fire and some of the other comments about overwhelming by just keeping throwing.

Depending on your style, one or the other should work.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Ever tried the tyson combo. Don’;t know if he really threw it, but that is what our MT instructor calls it.

Snap a jab, a little high.
then a full step hard right cross to xyphoid process(very bottom of the sternum), burrying shoulder in a full follow through.
throw a tight left uppercut sliding it straight up the sternum(explosive)

The wide right hook to the head, wide left hook to the head and cirle off right, tight maybe be able to snap a straight right cross as you cirle off.

Throw it a couple times, if you notice they cover the body well don’t hurt your fist on the elbow with the hard right to the body just use it as an entrance for the uppercut.

a good follow up combo to throw em off is jab to looping overhand right( ala rashad/lidel) bitchslap left hook.

I don’t know if that makes sense, but would work at opening him up, and very hard to counter since your head should be burried with the upper cuts and hooks. and if you aren’t orthodox reverse the hands.[/quote]

This sounds like what you’re talking about- this is how Tyson got inside and did his damage with that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5myL5x-qmd8

The only other thing I was thinking is that counterpunching a counterpuncher is difficult if your style doesn’t lend itself to it.

The other way to do things would be as JohnnyTMT said, and like Castillo and to some extent Chavez did to Floyd in their fights with Mayweather- pin him against the ropes, don’t let him breath, and go to the body and head with hooks.

I’m not a fan of overhand lefts because they leave you wide open with your dick in the air. Some fighters use them well, like Calzaghe, but it’s tough if you’re fighting someone quick.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
The only other thing I was thinking is that counterpunching a counterpuncher is difficult if your style doesn’t lend itself to it. [/quote]

Agreed. This is the way I box almost all time (suppose it makes me a counter-counter puncher) but some people just don’t like it.

The only real advice I can give to the OP is to watch him closely and examine his habits. In the end, it’s probably his boxing skills that will give you opportunities, rather than the specific type of guard he’s using.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Shadow_Boxer wrote:
So I’ve been sparring against someone who uses this defense. Were both orthodox fighters. Most of the time we spend circling eachother, fighting for angles. I have the slight reach advantage, and I always initiate the exchanges.

However, hes very fast, and pretty much relies on counterpunching. His defense is tight and it seems I only have sucess against him when hes tired. Anyone box against people who use this defense? Any advice?

If he allows you to initiate the action, then use “attack by drawing”. Basically, fake to draw his counter punch, but stay just out of range of his strikes. Then counter his counter. Especially if he’s got good defense, one of the best times to hit him is when he is throwing an attack, because his defense will be weakened at that moment.

Of course, you don’t always throw fakes first, as he’ll quickly learn not to react to the fake and wait for the real attack. So, you’ll want to mix up simple direct attacks (attacks with no preliminary motions, like fakes) with the ABD attacks. This will keep him guessing, slow down his reaction time, and should give you the advantage.

Tiring him out is probably another good plan. Fatigue is one way to effectively nullify a person’s speed advantage.[/quote]

Will try this.

[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
I like to push guys who use this guard into the ropes and then use a lot of left hooks to the body and head in combinations. The occasional overhand right works well (assuming they are orthodox stance).[/quote]

Hes not the type to be up against the ropes for long, and imo is a better inside fighter than I am. When i do get him against the ropes it turns brutal for both of us.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
To the original poster- what kind of fighter are you? You a boxer, a banger, a swarmer?

The type of fight that you like to fight may have something to do with the kind of fight you want to get into with this guy.

[/quote]

Not sure what a banger is… I’d say im a boxer-puncher.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Ever tried the tyson combo. Don’;t know if he really threw it, but that is what our MT instructor calls it.

Snap a jab, a little high.
then a full step hard right cross to xyphoid process(very bottom of the sternum), burrying shoulder in a full follow through.
throw a tight left uppercut sliding it straight up the sternum(explosive)

The wide right hook to the head, wide left hook to the head and cirle off right, tight maybe be able to snap a straight right cross as you cirle off.

Throw it a couple times, if you notice they cover the body well don’t hurt your fist on the elbow with the hard right to the body just use it as an entrance for the uppercut.

a good follow up combo to throw em off is jab to looping overhand right( ala rashad/lidel) bitchslap left hook.

I don’t know if that makes sense, but would work at opening him up, and very hard to counter since your head should be burried with the upper cuts and hooks. and if you aren’t orthodox reverse the hands.[/quote]

Weird, my instructor taught us the Tyson combo… but its completely different. However, the combo you just described is one I like and do throw from time to time. I dunno if uppercuts to the body would work against philly shell, as their lead hand stays low to block them. Might as well give it a shot.

Does the guy stick with this even when coming forward?

I’ve never worked with anyone who used this type of defense effectively at all times but I have sparred with guys that will use it at range on occasion, against the ropes when not hurt, or when recovering from a bodyshot.

You may be able to work him a bit like a southpaw. Stick a few jabs out while moving to his right, try to time his movement, slide right a little, throw a lead right hand. If you can draw some left hooks out of him(maybe drop your right hand some-I mean inches, not to your knees- and be prepared to get it up quickly to protect you while throwing yours),

You should be able to see it pretty easily(anything he does with his left hand will be coming a long way) and counter it with your own hook-if you time it right and catch him midpunch he’ll be hurting.

High punch count combinations should also find some openings(he’s got to protect the left side of his head with a shoulder roll which should leave you a short opening there). If he stands straight up with this defense try to work the body even if your hitting his arm-his own arm getting knocked into his body won’t feel great.

[quote]Shadow_Boxer wrote:
JonnyTMT wrote:
I like to push guys who use this guard into the ropes and then use a lot of left hooks to the body and head in combinations. The occasional overhand right works well (assuming they are orthodox stance).

Hes not the type to be up against the ropes for long, and imo is a better inside fighter than I am. When i do get him against the ropes it turns brutal for both of us.[/quote]

Brutal is good! hehe Yeah I’ll admit I’m not a very technical boxer, I just keep going at people until they break down.

over hand rights can work against a philly shell user,another option throw right hands to his lead shoulder…a couple of rounds of that and he cant use the shoulder roll!