T Nation

Few Exercises Vs. Many Exercises

[quote]Principal Weider wrote:
dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:

Yeah, they won’t do anything… except make your biceps and lats stronger, and get you to a point where you can 10+ pullups a lot faster.

Yea, and leg extensions are the way to squat a lot right?

Exactly! that’s why powerlifters never do direct/isolation tricep movements to get their bench up.

/sarcasm
[/quote]

Sarcasm isn’t good if you have to clarify that it’s sarcasm

[quote]mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:

squat, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, RDL …

VS.

just squatting

I wonder which option is going to get a person to a big squat faster?[/quote]

For a new lifter? JUST SQUATTING hands down is better. A more advanced lifter? Box squats, goodmornings, reverse hypers, and deadlifts. I still so no leg curls or leg extensions.

And I have NEVER seen anyone that couldn’t do pullups, suddenly get strong enough to do them by doing curls and straight arm pulldowns. If you believe this is the way, head over to the beginner forum. Lat pulldowns, assisted pullups, rows and deadlifts in that order would be what are needed. And yes doing just the lat pulldowns FEW EXERCISES would be the fastest route.

If you wanna get stronger at bench, YOU BENCH. Endless sets of tri extensions and flys aren’t going to do crap for your bench compared to bench.

But ya, your and idiot. Keep spreading these false ideas. At least then it will be easy to get an available squat rack in the gym, because everyone will be on the leg extensions.

[quote]dankid wrote:
For a new lifter? JUST SQUATTING hands down is better. A more advanced lifter? Box squats, goodmornings, reverse hypers, and deadlifts. I still so no leg curls or leg extensions.[/quote]

You seem to be under the impression that this is the Strength Sports forum. It is not.

You are also under the delusion that powerlifters never do leg curls or leg extensions… again, this is not so.

I’m not really a fan of straight arm pulldowns, but they will help make a persons lats stronger, and curls will obviously make a persons biceps stronger. I only used those as examples because those are the exercises YOU stated.

Where did you get the idea that ANYONE is saying you would stop bench pressing altogether, and all you would do is tricep extensions and flys?

That’s just retarded.

[quote] But ya, your and idiot. Keep spreading these false ideas. At least then it will be easy to get an available squat rack in the gym, because everyone will be on the leg extensions.
[/quote]

Again, same problem as above… Not a single person on this forum (except maybe NP) has ever advocated doing leg extensions INSTEAD OF squats.

[quote]mr popular wrote:

Where did you get the idea that ANYONE is saying you would stop bench pressing altogether, and all you would do is tricep extensions and flys?[/quote]

… because their argument would fall apart if they didn’t approach it this way?

[quote]dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:

squat, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, RDL …

VS.

just squatting

I wonder which option is going to get a person to a big squat faster?

For a new lifter? JUST SQUATTING hands down is better. A more advanced lifter? Box squats, goodmornings, reverse hypers, and deadlifts. I still so no leg curls or leg extensions.

And I have NEVER seen anyone that couldn’t do pullups, suddenly get strong enough to do them by doing curls and straight arm pulldowns. If you believe this is the way, head over to the beginner forum. Lat pulldowns, assisted pullups, rows and deadlifts in that order would be what are needed. And yes doing just the lat pulldowns FEW EXERCISES would be the fastest route.

If you wanna get stronger at bench, YOU BENCH. Endless sets of tri extensions and flys aren’t going to do crap for your bench compared to bench.

But ya, your and idiot. Keep spreading these false ideas. At least then it will be easy to get an available squat rack in the gym, because everyone will be on the leg extensions.
[/quote]

Ya guys, a main lift with assistance exercises is not as good as running your main lift into the ground!! BENCH TIL YOU DIE AND NO PRESSDOWNS EVER!!!111

hmm, that would make a good T-shirt, various options obviously depending on your fav exercise,

BENCH TILL YOU DIEEEE

SQUAT TILL YOU DIEEEE

WRIST CURL TILL YOU DIEEEEEE

[quote]dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:

squat, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, RDL …

VS.

just squatting

I wonder which option is going to get a person to a big squat faster?

For a new lifter? JUST SQUATTING hands down is better. A more advanced lifter? Box squats, goodmornings, reverse hypers, and deadlifts. I still so no leg curls or leg extensions.

And I have NEVER seen anyone that couldn’t do pullups, suddenly get strong enough to do them by doing curls and straight arm pulldowns. If you believe this is the way, head over to the beginner forum. Lat pulldowns, assisted pullups, rows and deadlifts in that order would be what are needed. And yes doing just the lat pulldowns FEW EXERCISES would be the fastest route.

If you wanna get stronger at bench, YOU BENCH. Endless sets of tri extensions and flys aren’t going to do crap for your bench compared to bench.

But ya, your and idiot. Keep spreading these false ideas. At least then it will be easy to get an available squat rack in the gym, because everyone will be on the leg extensions.
[/quote]

Dankid… he’s not saying that a curl is better than a pull-up. He’s saying a curl AND a pull-up is better than a pull-up alone and I’m sure most would agree.

I haven’t done leg extensions in a long time, but squatting along with lunges and RDLs would definitely be more beneficial than squatting alone.

Avoiding all isolation exercises is one of the stupidest things you can do. Oh yeah… they’re not ‘functional’… I forgot this is a bodybuilding forum.

I see what you are saying about squats + assistance work being better than just squats, but not always. I should have been more clear.

As I suggested earlier, the more of a beginner you are, the less exercises you need, and the more you should focus on the main lifts. The more advanced you are the more exercises you need, and likely the more you should focus on assistance lifts.

If a person can not do a pullup, then I believe they are very much a beginner. And I also believe that isolation work is a complete waste of time for this person. Now a person that can do 10 pullups, and can do pullups with weight would benefit much more from curls and straight arm pulldowns.

And the same goes for any exercise. If you cant squat your BW, the best thing for you to do is to just squat. I would argue that if you took two equal people and had one just squat, while the other squatted and did all the assistance work, that the person who just squatted would reach the BW squat much much faster.

And my reasoning for all of this is that when you are new to lifting and dont have a lot of strength, your gains are mainly neural and learning the motor programs. This is why going crazy on leg extensions, leg press, and leg curls wont help a newbie the same way it would help and elite PL’er.

And yes this is a BB’ing forum, but for someone that cant do pullups, they are going to build more muscle by learning to do pullups and progressing faster, rather than curls and isolation work + pullups which I feel would take much longer.

[quote]dankid wrote:
I see what you are saying about squats + assistance work being better than just squats, but not always. I should have been more clear.

As I suggested earlier, the more of a beginner you are, the less exercises you need, and the more you should focus on the main lifts. The more advanced you are the more exercises you need, and likely the more you should focus on assistance lifts.

If a person can not do a pullup, then I believe they are very much a beginner. And I also believe that isolation work is a complete waste of time for this person. Now a person that can do 10 pullups, and can do pullups with weight would benefit much more from curls and straight arm pulldowns.

And the same goes for any exercise. If you cant squat your BW, the best thing for you to do is to just squat. I would argue that if you took two equal people and had one just squat, while the other squatted and did all the assistance work, that the person who just squatted would reach the BW squat much much faster.

And my reasoning for all of this is that when you are new to lifting and dont have a lot of strength, your gains are mainly neural and learning the motor programs. This is why going crazy on leg extensions, leg press, and leg curls wont help a newbie the same way it would help and elite PL’er.

And yes this is a BB’ing forum, but for someone that cant do pullups, they are going to build more muscle by learning to do pullups and progressing faster, rather than curls and isolation work + pullups which I feel would take much longer.[/quote]

uhhh, going to have to dissagree with you there I thought new lifters can do more assistance work simply because the poundages on their main lift aren’t as taxing on their bodies, while a more experienced Pler would simply do their huge main lift and cook their cns without doing as much volume.
Someone more experienced with this subject please correct me though.

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
uhhh, going to have to dissagree with you there I thought new lifters can do more assistance work simply because the poundages on their main lift aren’t as taxing on their bodies, while a more experienced Pler would simply do their huge main lift and cook their cns without doing as much volume.
Someone more experienced with this subject please correct me though.[/quote]

Uh I thought we were discussing bodybuilding here. But anyway I would have thought that it is exactly because newbies cannot use much weight on their main lifts that they can do a lot more of these lifts without the need for much assistance work (say 10x10 on the squat), whereas a more advanced lifter would be pretty much wasted after doing such a high volume and therefore does less volume on the main lift then relies on some assistance work to bring up his weaker areas. Speaking of which, I would think that a newbie is weak everywhere, so he’d be better off sticking to the main lifts which work “everywhere” compared to specific assistance exercises.

[quote]dankid wrote:
I would argue that if you took two equal people and had one just squat, while the other squatted and did all the assistance work, that the person who just squatted would reach the BW squat much much faster.[/quote]

This makes absolutely no sense…

…Oh alright… this STILL makes absolutely no sense!

Newbies gain muscle faster than probably anyone else. Is there neural learning going on? Yes.

Does that mean the best thing to do is completely ignore trying to gain an even amount of muscle and ignore strengthening the (probably already imbalanced) muscles that come together for a lift like the squat? No, that would be retarded.

All your talk about “motor programs” isn’t producing results and it never has.

Again, this makes absolutely no sense.

You honestly believe someone is going to build MORE muscle by just doing pullups… as opposed to doing pullups, and other exercises for their back and arms?

As though curls and pulldowns are somehow going to HAMPER a persons progress? How is that?

[quote]Vanre wrote:
trav123456 wrote:
But anyway I would have thought that it is exactly because newbies cannot use much weight on their main lifts that they can do a lot more of these lifts without the need for much assistance work (say 10x10 on the squat), whereas a more advanced lifter would be pretty much wasted after doing such a high volume and therefore does less volume on the main lift then relies on some assistance work to bring up his weaker areas. Speaking of which, I would think that a newbie is weak everywhere, so he’d be better off sticking to the main lifts which work “everywhere” compared to specific assistance exercises.[/quote]

This is exactly correct, but some people on here dont get this. Its not just doing a bunch of exercises that is going to make you big and “even” Theres a reason programs that involve mainly if not only the main compounds get a lot of new lifters great results. And that IS because doing just squats, deadlifts, presses and pulls will allow a new lifter to gain strength faster, recruit more muscle and consequently build more muscle. It all comes down to increasing strength. Sure this was about BB’ing, but the best way to get bigger, is to get stronger.

And sadly, it does come down to how functional a lift is. I’d agree that curls do have a large amount of carryover to pullups, especially when compared to the amount of carryover leg extensions have to squats.

For most of us, getting strong is the best way to get big. And bb’ing programs and lots of isolation exercises dont do much to help getting stronger, and may even hurt progress. Get your lifts up, THEN add the isolation movements to even out your appearance.

[quote]dankid wrote:
And the same goes for any exercise. If you cant squat your BW, the best thing for you to do is to just squat. I would argue that if you took two equal people and had one just squat, while the other squatted and did all the assistance work, that the person who just squatted would reach the BW squat much much faster.

And my reasoning for all of this is that when you are new to lifting and dont have a lot of strength, your gains are mainly neural and learning the motor programs. This is why going crazy on leg extensions, leg press, and leg curls wont help a newbie the same way it would help and elite PL’er.
[/quote]

That’s poor reasoning. No one is saying to use only leg extensions, leg press, and leg curls as opposed to squatting. What I’m saying is train squats but also throw in some other assistance work. I’m not sure where you’re going with the neural and motor learning argument… they’re still squatting so that should occur anyways.

Besides that, why exactly do you think assistance exercises are bad when accompanied by core lifts? Do you actually think the newbie is going to overtrain by adding a couple sets of lunges and RDLs after he’s done squatting? I doubt it. Especially if he’s doing something like 5x5 with only 135.

Another fucking retarded thread…
First post… [quote]I’m just looking to get some insight here… for bodybuilding (aesthetic) purposes" [/quote]

Second post…[quote]“i think i may have failed to articulate myself properly in my first post… let’s examine the clean and jerk, shall we?”[/quote]

Um… No what you FAILED to do was FOCUS, and the rest of the posters followed your drift.

Mistake number 1)
Clean and jerk for Aesthetic purposes? WHAT THE FUCK???
Great exercise, not great for Aesthetics. It’s a complex movement exceptional for using your whole body in a short time frame and teaching your muscles to fire maximum output, and muscular conditioning.

Mistake number 2) Soreness as a sign of how good an exercise is. People get sore all the time from doing exercises that they don’t normally do, or working their muscles in a different way or rep range. Doesn’t mean they are going to be the next Arnold.

Dankid I sure hope your not a personal trainer… If a person can’t squat you don’t put a bar on them and make them squat… If a person can’t do pull ups you don’t take them to the gym and make them do pull ups… Your post are showing no focus for the goal they are to accomplish, and we need to have “beginner” sticky with grade levels. Because I’ve yet to see 2 beginners with the same strength levels and coordination. You and Popular are arguing over a hypothetical person that may be too uncoordinated to do pullups(your plan might work), or too weak(Popular’s plan would work better) .

[quote]icehawk wrote:

Besides that, why exactly do you think assistance exercises are bad when accompanied by core lifts? Do you actually think the newbie is going to overtrain by adding a couple sets of lunges and RDLs after he’s done squatting? I doubt it. Especially if he’s doing something like 5x5 with only 135.
[/quote]

Here’s more of my reasoning. Lifting weights is just like many other sporting events. It requires a lot of coordination and skill to do well. If you are going to learn to play baseball, you start by playing catch, and hitting (usually off a tee) For 90% of people that ever play baseball, its going to come down to natural ability and just the basic playing catch, hitting the ball, etc. But when you get to a certain level, there are a ton of other drills and skills that will be necessary to learn to take you to the next level. You suddenly have to learn all the different strategies for different situations. You have to learn to hit different pitches, and field a ball more optimally. At this point very little of your training is going to be playing catch and hitting a ball (especially not off a tee).

The reason I use this analogy is because it is very similar to lifting. If you were to take someone that was just learning to play baseball, and have them work on learning to pitch, and hit curve balls, and sacrafice bunts, etc. before learning how to throw, catch, and hit off a tee; their progress would be exceptionally slow if at all.

Lifting is the same way. When you are first learning to lift, start with the most important exercises. Put all your focus into learning these exercises. Curls and leg extensions require little if any skill. You can pick them up and be good at them in a session or two.

Very few people put enough focus into learning the core lifts correctly, because they are more challengin and require more skill. And this is why nobody in the gym squats or deadlifts, and very few people can do pullups.

More is not better. A beginner, or someone who is weak in a lift isn’t going to get much benefit from doing isolation exercises with no weight.

Again, it comes down to what is FUNCTIONAL. Not in the balancing on BOSU balls sense, but what is functional for your goals.

If your goal is to put on size to your back, then your primary goal should be to get strong in pullups, rows, and deadlifts. If your goal is to get strong at these lifts, then you get strong at these lifts, or the lifts that most closly resemble them. If you cant do a pullup, then do a lat pulldown. Not a straight arm pulldown, or a curl.

And my reasoning for JUST the core movements doesn’t have to do with overtraining. Its about focus and efficiency. There probably isn’t any scientific principle backing this up, but in the real world this is how I believe it would go:

An individual only doing the core movements; more specifically something like 3x5 or 5x5 knows that they only have three sets to get stronger and target their muscles. They’ll put more focus and work harder, and consequently get stronger and better at the lift faster.

Another individual that has 5 sets of pulldowns, 5 sets of curls, 5 sets straight arm pulldowns, etc. They have a lot to do, and will likely put less emphasis on the pulldowns, which WILL be the most useful exercise for their goals.

Also, you could think of it this way. If you took the CORE MOVEMENT ONLY approach, you have a few better options. You could add an additional set of squats rather than doing leg curls and leg extensions. (so instead of 3x5 or 5x5, you could do 6x5 or even 8x5. More practice)

OR

You could workout more frequently. Instead of hitting legs once a week, you could hit squats 2-3 times a week, which I would bet a lot of money would be much better for strength and size in a beginner than a bunch of exercises less often.

We could sit here and argue this all day, and it really is all going to come down to different peoples opinions. Ive offered my reasoning, so you can either agree or disagree. It doesn’t matter to me, this is how I feel.

***I’d like to add, that im finding something similar with myself. I consider myself an intermediate LIFTER, and im finding that the core lifts are where I get all my gains from. Right now, my assistance/isolation work is usually 1 set to failure for a PR, and this seems to be working pretty well. Granted I said I am a lifter, and not a bb’er, so at my current level if I were a bb’er I would need a bit more focus on assistance/isolation.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Dankid I sure hope your not a personal trainer… If a person can’t squat you don’t put a bar on them and make them squat… If a person can’t do pull ups you don’t take them to the gym and make them do pull ups… Your post are showing no focus for the goal they are to accomplish, and we need to have “beginner” sticky with grade levels. Because I’ve yet to see 2 beginners with the same strength levels and coordination. You and Popular are arguing over a hypothetical person that may be too uncoordinated to do pullups(your plan might work), or too weak(Popular’s plan would work better) .

[/quote]

Well it depends why someone “cant” squat. If they cant squat or do pullups because they never learned to do them and they are “hard” then they should be forced to do them. How else are they going to learn them and get strong? You dont do magically get better at squatting by avoiding it. MOST people never do a pullup mainly because they never try to learn them. They just assume they are hard, or that they cant do them, or reason that curls are better.

I AM a personal trainer, and all my clients that SHOULD squat and deadlift DO squat and deadlift. IMO if skill is all thats holding you back from squatting, its better to do BW squats or squat the bar, then leg extensions, leg press, and leg curls. Better in the long run that is, which is all that really matters.

[quote]dankid wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Dankid I sure hope your not a personal trainer… If a person can’t squat you don’t put a bar on them and make them squat… If a person can’t do pull ups you don’t take them to the gym and make them do pull ups… Your post are showing no focus for the goal they are to accomplish, and we need to have “beginner” sticky with grade levels. Because I’ve yet to see 2 beginners with the same strength levels and coordination. You and Popular are arguing over a hypothetical person that may be too uncoordinated to do pullups(your plan might work), or too weak(Popular’s plan would work better) .

Well it depends why someone “cant” squat. If they cant squat or do pullups because they never learned to do them and they are “hard” then they should be forced to do them. How else are they going to learn them and get strong? You dont do magically get better at squatting by avoiding it. MOST people never do a pullup mainly because they never try to learn them. They just assume they are hard, or that they cant do them, or reason that curls are better.

I AM a personal trainer, and all my clients that SHOULD squat and deadlift DO squat and deadlift. IMO if skill is all thats holding you back from squatting, its better to do BW squats or squat the bar, then leg extensions, leg press, and leg curls. Better in the long run that is, which is all that really matters.
[/quote]

Okay, so you make a person that can do a bodyweight squat squat. No arguments there, but this brings us back to the pull up. A person that can’t do one pull up, your going to try to make them do pull-ups? rather than curls and lat pull downs?

[quote]dankid wrote:
Here’s more of my reasoning. Lifting weights is just like many other sporting events. It requires a lot of coordination and skill to do well. If you are going to learn to play baseball, you start by playing catch, and hitting (usually off a tee) For 90% of people that ever play baseball, its going to come down to natural ability and just the basic playing catch, hitting the ball, etc. But when you get to a certain level, there are a ton of other drills and skills that will be necessary to learn to take you to the next level. You suddenly have to learn all the different strategies for different situations. You have to learn to hit different pitches, and field a ball more optimally. At this point very little of your training is going to be playing catch and hitting a ball (especially not off a tee).

The reason I use this analogy is because it is very similar to lifting. If you were to take someone that was just learning to play baseball, and have them work on learning to pitch, and hit curve balls, and sacrafice bunts, etc. before learning how to throw, catch, and hit off a tee; their progress would be exceptionally slow if at all.

Lifting is the same way. When you are first learning to lift, start with the most important exercises. Put all your focus into learning these exercises. Curls and leg extensions require little if any skill. You can pick them up and be good at them in a session or two.
[/quote]

First, the baseball analogy sucks to me so I’m going to ignore that all together and not comment on it (no offense).

So you think multiple movements are too hard for a trainee to learn? Learning squats, lunges, and RDLs at the same time is too hard? Maybe… if you’re training a monkey.

Also, not sure where you’re going with the last comment. First you say it’s too hard for them to learn multiple things, but then you mention that isolation exercises are easy to pick up… So why not learn a compound movement or two and throw in isolation at the end?

[quote]dankid wrote:
If your goal is to put on size to your back, then your primary goal should be to get strong in pullups, rows, and deadlifts. If your goal is to get strong at these lifts, then you get strong at these lifts, or the lifts that most closly resemble them. If you cant do a pullup, then do a lat pulldown. Not a straight arm pulldown, or a curl.
[/quote]

No shit? This is what I’m trying to argue. Use multiple compound movements for the same muscle. This is what I was arguing: doing squats, RDLs, and lunges instead of just squats. Maybe throw in some calf raises at the end for isolation. I still don’t see you’re reasoning behind not doing curls… last post you said they had carryover to pull-ups so why not do them?

[quote]dankid wrote:
You could workout more frequently. Instead of hitting legs once a week, you could hit squats 2-3 times a week, which I would bet a lot of money would be much better for strength and size in a beginner than a bunch of exercises less often.
[/quote]

I’ll agree with you on frequency, but I still think they should do more than squat. I prefer upper/lower splits for newbies so they can train twice a week.

[quote]dankid wrote:
I AM a personal trainer
[/quote]

Like Airtruth said, you’d make a client would couldn’t do a pull-up to try a pull-up everyday until he finally got it?

A newbie’s leg routine would only consist of 5x5 squatting?

That’s terrible man. It’s so sad that it’s so easy to become a personal trainer.

Anyways, still thread got stale a few posts ago so I’m out indefinitely.

[quote]dankid wrote:
mr popular wrote:
dankid wrote:

Yeah, they won’t do anything… except make your biceps and lats stronger, and get you to a point where you can 10+ pullups a lot faster.

Yea, and leg extensions are the way to squat a lot right?
[/quote]

Isolation exercises have their place. People with longer limbs generally need them for arms and legs. Poeple with shorter limbs can more easily build their triceps from benching, biceps from pulling and quads from squatting because of superior leverage. Longer limbed people benefit much more from Leg extensions, curls, triceps…etc.

airtruth, since you (so very eloquently, i might add) more or less called me “retarded” for simply posing a question, i, in turn, would like to ask you one: have you ever actually SEEN the olympics? i enjoy watching olympic weightlifting thoroughly and, as such, would really like to point out that i’ve yet to see an olympic weightlifter without proportionally large shoulders and legs which, in case you missed it, ARE THE MAIN MUSCLES INVOLVED IN THE “CLEAN AND JERK” AND “THE SNATCH”.

obviously, olympic weightlifters aren’t always aesthetically pleasing to the eye and, newsflash, i’m sure most of 'em don’t care. but, you must remember, olympic lifters will usually focus on the competition lifts and their variations TO THE EXCLUSION OF EVERYTHING ELSE. i wasn’t asking if focusing on one exercise (the clean and jerk) would build an aesthetically pleasing body… obviously that would be ridiculous and, frankly, it’s a bit ridiculous of you to imply. what i was thinking about, and apparently it’s now become out of vouge to actually THINK ABOUT ANYTHING, was whether or not there would be any aesthetic merit to breaking down AN EXERCISE SUCH AS THE CLEAN AND JERK, INTO ITS PARTS, VS. SIMPLY JUST DOING MORE CLEAN AND JERKS.

while we’re on the topic of professional lifter types and aesthetics, i would also really like to say that, despite everyone’s modern affection for “powerlifting”, if you’ve ever actually seen a professional powerlifter, i wouldn’t exactly go so far as to say that these folks are aesthetically pleasing either… and, again, i’m sure they could care less. obviously, the more serious about powerlifting a person is, the more they will likely only train the 3 powerlifts and their variations… we’ve seen, time and time again, the type of physique that such a limited program of exercises will create: large legs, lower back, chest, traps, and triceps… and, again, huge surprise as THOSE ARE THE MAIN MUSCLES WORKED BY THE SQUAT, BENCH, AND DEADLIFT.

i guess i just find it really amusing, for lack of a better word, that many will staunchly advocate the squat and deadlift for aesthetic purposes… but will shun the clean and jerk or snatch as being relatively worthless… without noticing, apparently, that the squat and deadlift are PARTS OF THOSE OLYMPIC MOVES.

if you’ve ever done your homework and read anything about bodybuilding… and i mean REAL, PRE-STEROID, OR NO-STEROID BODYBUILDING… maybe something by eugen sandow (you know, that guy whose image they hand out in trophy form to olympia winners), bob hoffman, stuart mcrobert, brooks kubik, or the like, you’d realize that olympic moves have long been regarded as some of the absolute BEST MOVES to use for adding muscle IN THE AREAS THAT SAID EXERCISES WORK. i mean, even weider promoted olympic moves back in the day in a “bulking course” of sorts… hell, even gironda, a man who is probably more concerned with human aesthetics than anyone, listed the clean and press as one of the best possible moves for the shoulders…

i guess, what i’m really trying to say here, with all of this, is just show a little respect, airtruth. we’re all here for the same reason: because we’re looking to get bigger, stronger, more aesthetically pleasing, etc. this is a trial and error process and, as such, mistakes will be made along the way. believe it or not, i’ve noticed that alot of folks on this forum seem to genuinely respect the art (or science) of bodybuilding… and, in a nutshell, we enjoy thinking about it (and talking about it!) sometimes even as much as we actually enjoy doing it… i mean, you’re here reading threads too, in case you forgot.

by the way, to close, i think it’s pretty “retarded” to simply accept what’s been fed to you as fact… and blatantly dismiss others’ opinions… without, first, doing a little experimentation on your own… this is how we human beings create and add to our body of knowledge.

good day.