T Nation

Feedback on 4th Cycle Plan


#1

A little history first. Last two years been working out VERY hard. I'm 49yo 5'10" 178lbs. with 12%bf and recovering from back surgery. As a matter of fact finished last cycle in September when I herniated C7-T1 disk and had surgery right before Thanksgiving.

Rehab will start after Christmas and if everything goes right should be ready to start 100% at 1st of February. Will also have blood test in next two weeks.Before surgery was 195 with 15%bf.That took a lot out of me.
Anyway been able to think about my next cycle and would like some input.

wk 1-12 test cyp/sust 250 500mgs/wk
wk 1-10 Decca 400mgs/wk
wk 1-4 dbol 40mgs ed
wk 5-6 hcg 500iu ed
wk 8-12 Winny 50mgs ed
PCT
wk 13-19 nolvadex 20mgs ed
wk 13-16 hcg 5ooiu ed
wk 13-17 aromasin 20mgs ed
wk 13-19 vitamin E 1000iu ed

Been able to do alot of research and have enjoyed time off would really like to hear from you guys

Thanx


#2

Drop the winstrol. i cannot see a legitimate reason for its inclusion.

You would do fine on 300mg/deca per week IME, and i hope you have Nandrolone Decanoate and not "Decca".

HCG is too high a dose IMO, and it is not best used during the PCT as it qwill only serve to facilitate negative feedback when you are trying to recover.
I see that the way you are trying to use it is to give periodised bursts of LH to stimulate the testes to reduce atrophy, and this will be effective - but will be counterproductive to the recovery you desire.
250iu 3x/wk is fine i believe.

Why have you opted to use the SERM and AI in the fashion you have?

This cycle will prove to be a great builder - it is a cycle that i personally believe covers all the size and mass desires of a bulking bodybuilder.

Brook


#3

Thanx for responding Brook, the reason for using winstrol is to reduce water retention gained by the dbol and of coarse cutting at end of cycle.
And yes it would be deca-durabolin.

What do you think about the hcg mid-cycle, and do you think that 500iu is too much?

Well by using nolva I can't use letrozole or armidix because it will reduce blood plasma levels in them so that's why I use aromasin with the nolva.

If you had to change this PCT what would you do considering the cycle?


#4

Like the above poster said I would use hcg during cycle but not with pct...and you will be fine with 750-1000iu/wk...just one questions though...since you are 49 are you on hrt? the reason i ask is since you say this is your 4th cycle and with your age (not saying you are old) i doubt your test levels would be too high...also deca can be very suppresive which will make it harder to get back to normal.

If you know what your test levels are before going into this and not on gear it could save you time and money with pct as you could just run 200-250mg of test weekly when off cycle and not worry about crashing or shutting down...

Other than that the cycle looks good other than maybe taking winny out since it really wont do much and if you want to control bloat you could run 0.5mg of arimidex eod.


#5

It is not really too productive to design cycles that incorporate a bulking and a cutting portion, this is a technique best kept separate.
I am actually a fan of using a non aromatising anabolic after a drug like dbol.. but this is covered with the test/deca being run after the dbol is finished. The winny is pointless IMO, and i am actually in the camp that belioeves that winstrol will not build any noticeable muscle unless you are 4-8%bodyfat, and then only at a minimum of 50mg/day.. and also that it is toxic so needs to be run no longer than 6 weeks - which includes any other toxic orals.
Saying all this, winstrol is a useful ancillary drug IMO. So as an anti progesterone and also as a strong SHBG binding anabolic.

I think that a dose of either; 100mg/d, 150mgEOD or 250mg3x/wk is an effective amount to stimualte the leydigs to prevent atrophy of the testes (only a single part of HPTA suppression and not the most major one) with little to no further suppression via negative feedback. What i mean is test is test, whjether it is in a vial, from the testes or what the fuck. If you shoot 50mg test vs. 500mg test, the negative feedback will be proportionate. As will the effects.
If you shoot 100iu of HCG (read LH) vs. 1000iu, you get the same effect.. a smaller release of test vs. a massive release. the massive release will have a greater amount binding to the aromatase enzyme thus telling the HPTA it is unnessary. 100iu will still cause a release of testosterone, preventing the atrophy, but a much smaller release so there will be a massively smaller aromatisation level.
Daily or EOD doses of this amount will be a steady supply of "lh" that will prevent atrophy of the testes just fine and give much less or no suppression.

You can use them. I am not aware of the knowledge you are actually displaying - what i mean to say is, why does nolvadex reduce the blood plasma levels of arimidex or letrozole? ALSO, aromasin is perfectly fine as an AI and is preferred by many. What i meant by the statement to which you reply is that it is not necessary to use an AI and a SERM during a PCT of your design. One or the other would be fine.

It is often very beneficail to taper the test in some manner when using a Nandrolone product IMO, but if not a nolvadex 40/40/20/20 would be fine IMPE.

Depending on your age and experience i would either use a 40/40/20/20 or prisoners stasis taper outlined in the sticky.

Brook


#6

Juice- haven't been on any hrt by doctor. I'm in very good health other than my recent disk issue. I am going to get blood test to see what my levels actually are at this point. The other cycles I had been on I felt fantastic even long after.
Haven't done pct other than a small test taper 100/80/60. Didn't do any AI or SERM and all three cycles were 12wks. Wasn't educated on PCT before now.

Brook- thanks for ALL the info especially with the different PCT protocols. I'm going to use the test taper outlined by "Prisoner"

There is an issue of estrogen caused by the Hcg stimulated surge in testosterone.You can use low doses of HCG (300iu-) to avoid major spikes in estrogen, and cause far less inhibition from the HCG. The reason why I want to use more per injection (500iu)is to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and loose less of my gains.

While running HCG, on PCT, this will cause an increase in estrogen. I would already be using Nolva and the reason why I would use Aromasin (making estrogen receptors useless)
can cause androgenic sides, which will help to elevate mood on PCT, and remove 85%+ of estrogen from my body.

Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn't reduce exemestane's effectiveness, so any problem of inhibition possible with HCG is solved.

I do believe that with my age and with a liver cleanser I will use test taper.


#7

Juice- haven't been on any hrt by doctor. I'm in very good health other than my recent disk issue. I am going to get blood test to see what my levels actually are at this point. The other cycles I had been on I felt fantastic even long after.
Haven't done pct other than a small test taper 100/80/60. Didn't do any AI or SERM and all three cycles were 12wks. Wasn't educated on PCT before now.

Brook- thanks for ALL the info especially with the different PCT protocols. I'm going to use the test taper outlined by "Prisoner"

There is an issue of estrogen caused by the Hcg stimulated surge in testosterone.You can use low doses of HCG (300iu-) to avoid major spikes in estrogen, and cause far less inhibition from the HCG. The reason why I want to use more per injection (500iu)is to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and loose less of my gains.

While running HCG, on PCT, this will cause an increase in estrogen. I would already be using Nolva and the reason why I would use Aromasin (making estrogen receptors useless)
can cause androgenic sides, which will help to elevate mood on PCT, and remove 85%+ of estrogen from my body.

Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn't reduce exemestane's effectiveness, so any problem of inhibition possible with HCG is solved.

I do believe that with my age and with a liver cleanser I will use test taper.


#8

It's good to see that you are learning more about AAS now...you seem to be well informed and understand what you are doing.

I'm not sure if this is what brook is trying to say but, the main reason I wouldnt use HCG for pct is that HCG mimics LH which could make recovery after you stop use even longer...

you plan on using it during cycle which is great and will help with getting your natural test back to normal but if you use it for too long your natural testosterone levels could suffer. Hope this helps a bit


#9

Thanks alot Juice, I understand now what Brook was explaining on the PCT and both of you were very helpful which was why I got onto this site to begin with.


#10

Np bro...try to help when I can but some of these guys on here know a lot more than me! This site is great for gaining knowledge...unlike some of the more mainstream sites...