T Nation

Feedback for a Returner


#1

Hello everyone,

I'm happily reading T-Nation for several months and now I want to join the forums as well :slightly_smiling:

Short history of training:

  • 3 years bodybuilding
  • 4 years break
  • now for several months back to bodybuilding :slightly_smiling:
  • actual age: 24

Since I accomplished the first steps again I now want a more demanding program which will give me good results. I had some thoughts and this is what I came up with:

(I've made a .pdf for this new plan)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3GtVRuNrTccVTgzVUk5VnF1eXM/view?usp=sharing

I also have a nutrition plan for every day:

  • 30g protein shake after I wake up
  • 30min later I take 50g slow carbs
  • 20min later I take my pre-workout shake (Beta-Alanin, L-Arginine, L-Citrullin Malat, etc.)
  • 10min later I start training and in the meantime I drink 50g fast carbs with 15g BCAAs
  • at the end of the training I drink 30g protein
  • 30-60min later I eat a big meal (300g rice with tomato sauce and 3 spoons of olive oil)
  • 2,5h later I drink another 30g protein shake
  • 2,5h later I eat another big meal consistent of the same as before
  • 2,5h later I eat a bunch of raw vegetables with 4 spoons olive oil
  • before bed I dring another 30g protein shake with 2 spoons of linseed oil

Result:
ca. 4700 kcal
120g fat
600g carbs
185g protein

Mainly I need some advice for my new training plan!
Do the combination of the exercises fit?
Is the general volume too high?

I'm not that experienced so I'm thankful for every thought-provoking impulse :slightly_smiling:


#2

Can you give us a bit more of an idea of what you’re working with?


#3

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
Can you give us a bit more of an idea of what you’re working with?[/quote]

Yeah of course! Thought my .pdf would make it clear.

First of all I want to do a mass program because I’m still a really thin with just 80kg at 183cm…

I had some good experience with german high volume training in years past so I like the idea of another program of that kind.

Split 1.1 Chest & Back
Split 1.2 Arms & Shoulders
Split 1.3 Legs
Split 2.1 Chest & Back
Split 2.2 Arms & Shoulders
Split 2.3 Legs
Off Rest

This is my planned routine.
(schema: sets x reps speed)

Split 1.1

dips 10x10 4/0/0 (in rotation)
parallel grip chin-ups 10x10 4/0/0 (in rotation)
incline dumbbell press 3x6-8 4/0/0
t-bar row 3x6-8 3/0/0

Split 1.2

standing behind the neck press 5x10 4/0/0
front raises 5x10 3/0/0
side raises 3x6-8 3/0/0
t-bar shrugs 3x8-12 2/2/0
EZ spider curls 5x10 3/0/0 (in rotation)
EZ overhead triceps 5x10 3/0/0 (in rotation)
cable close grip curls 3x6-8 3/0/0
cable triceps pushdown 3x6-8 3/0/0

Split 1.3

back squats 10x10 4/0/0
lying leg curl (feet away) 10x10 4/0/0
leg extension 3x6-8 4/0/0
romanian deadlift 3x6-8 4/0/0

Split 2.1

flat dumbbell press 10x10 4/0/0 (in rotation)
wide grip chin-ups 10x10 4/0/0 (in rotation)
flat dumbbell fly 3x6-8 5/0/0
close grip row 3x6-8 4/0/0

Split 2.2

standing military press 5x10 4/0/0
cable face pulls 5x10 4/0/0
seated dumbbell shoulder press 3x6-8 4/0/0
barbell shrugs 3x8-12 2/2/0
seated reverse dumbbell curls 5x10 3/0/0 (in rotation)
seated overhead dumbbell triceps 5x10 3/0/0 (in rotation)
cable close grip reverse curls 3x6-8 3/0/0
cable triceps pushdown 3x6-8 3/0/0

Split 2.3

front squats 10x10 4/0/0
lying leg curl (feet inward) 10x10 4/0/0
farmers walk 3 50m
glute ham raises 3x6-8 4/0/0

Abs are going to be trained 2-4 times each week except on Split 1.2 or 2.2 days.

general rules:

  • 30s for main exercises in rotation
  • 45s break for main exercises alone
  • 90s break for additional exercises
  • 3min break between exercises
  • on the last set of additional exercises maybe a finisher like a dropset
  • normally finish one rep before fatigue

Does this clear things up?


#4

Yeah of course! Thought my .pdf would make it clear.

First of all I want to do a mass program because I’m still a really thin with just 80kg at 183cm…

I had some good experience with german high volume training in years past so I like the idea of another program of that kind.

Split 1.1 Chest & Back
Split 1.2 Arms & Shoulders
Split 1.3 Legs
Split 2.1 Chest & Back
Split 2.2 Arms & Shoulders
Split 2.3 Legs
Off Rest

This is my planned routine.
(schema: sets x reps speed)

Split 1.1

dips 10x10 (in rotation)
parallel grip chin-ups 10x10 (in rotation)
incline dumbbell press 3x6-8
t-bar row 3x6-8

Split 1.2

standing behind the neck press 5x10
front raises 5x10
side raises 3x6-8
t-bar shrugs 3x8-12
EZ spider curls 5x10 (in rotation)
EZ overhead triceps 5x10 (in rotation)
cable close grip curls 3x6-8
cable triceps pushdown 3x6-8

Split 1.3

back squats 10x10
lying leg curl (feet away) 10x10
leg extension 3x6-8
romanian deadlift 3x6-8

Split 2.1

flat dumbbell press 10x10 (in rotation)
wide grip chin-ups 10x10 (in rotation)
flat dumbbell fly 3x6-8
close grip row 3x6-8

Split 2.2

standing military press 5x10
cable face pulls 5x10
seated dumbbell shoulder press 3x6-8
barbell shrugs 3x8-12
seated reverse dumbbell curls 5x10 (in rotation)
seated overhead dumbbell triceps 5x10 (in rotation)
cable close grip reverse curls 3x6-8
cable triceps pushdown 3x6-8

Split 2.3

front squats 10x10
lying leg curl (feet inward) 10x10
farmers walk 3 50m
glute ham raises 3x6-8

Abs are going to be trained 2-4 times each week except on Split 1.2 or 2.2 days.

general rules:

  • 30s for main exercises in rotation
  • 45s break for main exercises alone
  • 90s break for additional exercises
  • 3min break between exercises
  • on the last set of additional exercises maybe a finisher like a dropset
  • normally finish one rep before fatigue

Does this clear things up?


#5

I just want to caution you against investing too much time in the research and planning part of things. It’s very easy to come up with something on paper that seems like it would work well, that doesn’t really pan out well when you try it.

Personally I think you’ve “figured out” too many details without having the experience to understand how much each of those details matter.

In the end, you’re going to just have to get in the gym, do things for awhile, evaluate things, make some changes, rinse repeat.


#6

I agree with Lorez.

I also would recommend not overcomplicating your training plan. I’m not saying a Chest/Back, Shoulders/Arms, Legs split 2x / week can’t ever work but my guess is you aren’t experienced enough to really benefit from it, compared to a simpler approach. E.g., you really think you’re going to squat 10 sets of 10 on Wednesday and then front squat 10x10 on Saturday? Either the squats will be very light and a waste of time or you’re going to run yourself into the ground.

Why not try a simpler split that you know you can recover from and make progress (i.e. get stronger) week to week?

Like this one from CT:

Day 1   Back and deadlift
Day 2   Chest and shoulders
Day 3   OFF
Day 4   Biceps and Triceps
Day 5   Legs
Day 6   Chest and Back
Day 7   OFF

He tells you exactly what to do in this article: https://www.T-Nation.com/training/6-ways-to-reach-your-genetic-potential


#7

Mhhmhh, I know what you both mean…

But actually I have the time for the next 2-3 months to train a lot more than normal and I would love to be more time in the gym, if I’ll benefit as well from that :stuck_out_tongue:

Should I maybe do a slow adaption to my new training system?
Like the first week just doing 5x10, the next week 6x10 and so on till I reach the 10x10.

@craze9

Your idea sounds really nice, I’m a fan of training at least the big muscles twice a week. Would be a great system for the time I don’t have that much time to spend in the gym, thanks! :slight_smile:

My next to last training plan was something like that:

Day 1:â??Legs (low intensity pump work); Pressing muscles (main workout)
Day 2:â??Pressing muscles (pump work); Pulling muscles (main workout)
Day 3:â??Pulling muscles (pump work); Legs (main workout)
Day 4:â??Legs (pump work); Pressing muscles (main workout)
Day 5:â??Pressing muscles (pump work); Pulling muscles (main workout)
Day 6:â??Pulling muscles (pump work); Legs (main workout)
Day 7:â??Legs (pump work); Pressing muscles (main workout)
etc…

I made great gains through this plan though I trained it just for one month as my choice of the rep system and amount of sets wasn’t that smart afterwards.


#8

[quote]Matze.P7 wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
Can you give us a bit more of an idea of what you’re working with?[/quote]

Yeah of course! Thought my .pdf would make it clear.

Does this clear things up?[/quote]

For the record, your pdf made very few things clear for me due partly to the bad formatting.

That aside, what I meant was some specifics on where you are now. How much you lift, how lean you are, weight etc. I see you’ve answered some of this above.


#9

It looks like you have read Charles Poliquin’s German Volume Training but have added to it substantially.
Why not just do the program the way he wrote it?

Charles sets it up that way with rest days for very good reason. The program is very demanding. The way you have it set up I can’t see how you will get through it without burning out.

The idea of volume training is for it to be very demanding but to then have rest and recover. So the high volume causes a stimulus and the recovery promotes growth.

Charles writes about German Volume Training (or at least rehashes old articles) at least 4 or 5 times per year so there is heaps of information out there including actual programs which he has written which are ready to go.
Just do a search and follow it as it was intended to be.

Having said all that I’ve done your exact split in that order and quite liked it but just not the way you have it set up. 10 x 10 on squats is bloody hard. Your legs are going to be sore for days.

Edit: A closer look shows a few other queries:
Have you ever done 10 set of 10 reps on pullups before? What about dips?
Plus your notation says that you will be using a 4 second eccentric phase. You would have to be a pretty damn good gymnasts to do that.
Same for the 10x10 back and front squats. 4 second negatives??? No way known.
Poliquin is big on his slow 4 second eccentric lifts but when doing 10x10 it just isn’t practical. Control the weight down for sure but 4 seconds is a bloody long time after a few sets.


#10

Okay, thanks for the hint. Next time I try to format it better. It looks in Excel quite well, but the conversion to .pdf mixed a few things up…

Body-weight: ± 79kg
Body fat (estimated): 13%

Some example exercises:

  • incline dumbbell press: 10x5 with 81,5 lbs
  • close parallel grip chin-up: 10x5 with 22 lbs
  • front squat: 10x5 with 160 lbs
  • close grip bench press: 10x5 with 165 lbs

speed for the exercises mostly 4/0/0 some arm exercises with 3/0/0

I’m used to train 4-7 days a week mostly 4 or 5 days.


#11

[quote]Angus1 wrote:
Having said all that I’ve done your exact split in that order and quite liked it but just not the way you have it set up. 10 x 10 on squats is bloody hard. Your legs are going to be sore for days. [/quote]

Thanks, I didn’t read his articles but I will do it now :slight_smile:

How exactly was your plan different than mine? Would be interesting for me to see the differences!

Did some german high volume years ago with a two part split 4 times a week.
At this time I didn’t watch my food intake and didn’t get the proper recovery due to lack of sleep or things like that. That’s why I thougt at this time I could do a little bit more.

Edit:

10x10 parallel grip chin-ups without weight is no problem for me, however 10x10 of wide grip chin-ups afraid me a little bit :smiley:

Your other point is very good! I thought that as well that 4/0/0 would be an overkill with the 10x10 system. So I should really just stay with controlled movement without counting the seconds.

Edit2:

Just saw that my actual training schedule is from Charles Poliquin :smiley:
Didn’t know his name but his program is really cool!

That’s my plan:

I’m soon finishing it during the end of the next two weeks.

That’s why I added the speed and some exercises for the legs to my new plan.
I want to try a plan with higher reps because I think my muscles respond better to that than to the low rep variant I’m doing now.

Edit3:

Maybe I could do a 3 on 1 off schedule, so that I get a day break after each complete split. At least for the beginning. So I would lift 5-6 times a week which also wouldn’t be less I guess.


#12

I would hold off on making your own program right now or altering other ones at the moment, there are plenty great templates on this site you could start immediately that are proven and made by great coaches/lifters. You will do well with whichever one you pick so theres no need to exacerbate the situation, you seem really motivated and eager to improve so thats the most important thing right now. Good luck


#13

I respond best to high volume, too, but sometimes you have to reduce it and let your body recover. If you like high volume and intensity, coupled with smart periodization, check out John Meadows’ Mountain Dog training. He did a series of articles here. Easiest way to find it is by body part. “Mountain dog legs”,“mountain dog arms”, etc.

The first phase preps you, phase two builds up to massive volume, phase three kicks the crap out of you with reduced volume and increased intensity, and then you can either deload or go back to phase one and recover before ramping up again.

I’ve been back at it for a little over three months now, and still progressing. I don’t follow his program to the letter (I get better results from reverse pyramids than normal pyramids, and I use weighted stretches), but the principle of slowly increasing volume while using added-intensity techniques is working really well.

I’m up 15 lbs (205), down 3.5% fat (12.5%), +2" to legs (24 3/4), and +1" to arms (16 1/4).


#14

[quote]Matze.P7 wrote:

[quote]Angus1 wrote:
Having said all that I’ve done your exact split in that order and quite liked it but just not the way you have it set up. 10 x 10 on squats is bloody hard. Your legs are going to be sore for days. [/quote]

Thanks, I didn’t read his articles but I will do it now :slight_smile:

How exactly was your plan different than mine? Would be interesting for me to see the differences!

[/quote]
I did the original GVT pretty much exactly as it was written except for all the 4 second negatives. I certainly controlled the weight down though but just thought the idea of counting to 4 on each eccentric was a bit much. After around 5 sets it gets hard just to keep the reps up.

The original GVT was 2 days on 1 off 1 on 1 off then repeat. That’s pretty much how I did it. This recovery period is necessary as you get further into the program especially after leg day.

The Arm/Shoulder day I did was 10x10 biceps, 10x10 triceps then 3x10 lateral raise and rear deltoid machine. I have also done a version where I did 10x10 Smith High Incline Press and Bent Over lateral raises with 3x10 of a bicep and tricep and that worked fine as well. The idea is to keep each session to just 4 exercises.

As you can see this is an antagonist training program and the sets should be done in an alternate fashion. This means 1 set of chest rest 90 seconds then one set of back rest 90 seconds then 1 set of chest and so on. This is how it is meant to be done and doing it that way works well.
If you’re in a busy gym it can be difficult to take up 2 pieces of equipment for all that time. In this case you just do straight sets but that is extremely boring. Most boring training I’ve done actually. Try and alternate sets if you can.


#15

You’ve gotten some good advice regarding training here (I also recommend picking an off-the-shelf program and following it closely). In your OP you list your diet as 600g carbs, 185g protein and 120g fat. That adds up to 4,220 cals, but you listed 4,700.

Also, do you know what your maintenance is now and have you gone this high on cals right out of the gate before? We’re about the same size and I didn’t get up to 4,500 cals during a past bulk until the very end when I was going for the last 5 lbs. I wasn’t doing the volume you’re talking about and I got way fatter than I should have. You very well may have a very fast metabolism, but unless you are eating 3,500 now with no training, I would start off a bit lower and slowly increase.


#16

@cparker

I understand what you mean and agree with it but I want to do a one month 6 days a week high volume program to “overload” my body. Didn’t find a program which fits these categories. In September I’m going to do a “normal” program from this site.

@JayPierce

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m going to do with this program. Overload my body for one month and than get a normal program to recover from it and grow.
Your mentioned program sounds quite nice, I will have a look at it!

@Angus1

Thanks for your outline of your program.
10x10 biceps and triceps is pretty damn hard for these little muscles I guess :smiley:
Would love to do every exercise in an alternating way but I don’t always have the possibility to do it in my gym with every equipment…

@Tyler23

Yeah definitely! People gave me already some good advice to reconsider my first training approach :slight_smile:
For the kcal, I didn’t break down every single supp to protein/fat/carbs. So in the fat/protein/carb listing is something missing. I did calculate it though in the whole kcal sum.
Sadly I don’t know what my exact maintenance is…
I’m eating like this since 3 months now. Didn’t gain any body fat since than even lost a bit around my belly! Before I ate a bit less but didn’t care anything about nutrition timing and sources and got a bit fat…
So I guess the protein pulsing and stuff seems to work somehow^^


#17

Just an update on how I would do it at the moment:

Split 1.1 Chest & Back
Split 1.2 Arms & Shoulders
Split 1.3 Legs
(off) (poss. rest)
Split 2.1 Chest & Back
Split 2.2 Arms & Shoulders
Split 2.3 Legs
Off Rest

This is my planned routine.
(schema: sets x reps)

Split 1.1

10x10 (in rotation) dips
10x10 (in rotation) parallel grip chin-ups
3x6-8 incline dumbbell press
3x6-8 t-bar row

Split 1.2

5x10 (in rotation) standing behind the neck press
5x10 (in rotation) front raises
3x6-8 side raises
3x8-12 t-bar shrugs
5x10 (in rotation) EZ spider curls
5x10 (in rotation) EZ overhead triceps
3x6-8 cable close grip curls
3x6-8 cable triceps pushdown

Split 1.3

10x10 (in rotation) back squats
10x10 (in rotation) lying leg curl (feet away)
3x6-8 leg extension
3x6-8 romanian deadlift

Split 2.1

10x10 (in rotation) flat dumbbell press
10x10 (in rotation) wide grip chin-ups
3x6-8 flat dumbbell fly
3x6-8 close grip row

Split 2.2

5x10 (in rotation) standing military press
5x10 (in rotation) cable face pulls
3x6-8 seated dumbbell shoulder press
3x8-12 barbell shrugs
5x10 (in rotation) seated reverse dumbbell curls
5x10 (in rotation) seated overhead dumbbell tricep
3x6-8 cable close grip reverse curls
3x6-8 cable triceps pushdown

Split 2.3

10x10 (in rotation) front squats
10x10 (in rotation) lying leg curl (feet inward)
3x50m farmers walk
3x6-8 glute ham raises

Abs are going to be trained 2-4 times each week except on Split 1.2 or 2.2 days.

general rules:

  • 30s for main exercises in rotation
  • 90s break for additional exercises
  • 3min break between exercises
  • on the last set of an additional exercises maybe a finisher like a dropset
  • during the 10x10 or the 10x5 normally finish one rep before fatigue

#18

So, thought someone may be interested in updates on this:

Accomplished my first week of the planned schedule. It was quite hard and I had and have an enormous amount of soreness as expected :smiley: (Trained 6 days in a row and didn’t take the extra rest day after the Split 1.x)
Even though I thought the second Leg-Day would be the hardest of all it wasn’t that nasty. It was true that I couldn’t walk quite well into the studio at that day but after my warming up (I do the DeFranco Agile 8) and the first two sets of front squats it worked good.
My only problem was within the Split 2.2 and my anterior delts. Due to the chosen exercises I still had a really sore anterior delt muscle at that day. Guess it couldn’t recover enough from Split 1.2 and it is definitely a secondary muscle during the Split 2.1 . That’s why I did just 10x10 of cable face pulls on that day and dropped the standing military press (would have been too much for that muscle if I did this exercise, have sensible shoulders and a good feeling what I should do or shoudn’t)
Would like to change the orginal planned military press with another pulling excercise which emphasis the posterior delt as the cable face pull. I know I could just keep doing 10x10 cable face pulls at this point but this isn’t that much fun as if I would do two exercises in rotation 5x10 each. And I think I can get a better pump in my posterior delt if I do two sligthly differnt exercises for it.

Does anyone has a recommendation which exercise would fit with the cable face pull or two differnt exercises which make a good match and both emphasis the posterior delt?

If anyone wonders how I could survive that training that “easy”, I did some things to speed up recovery which helped me quite well:

  • I always trained in the morning and I went every day in the afternoon/evening (1 hour after my 2nd big meal, so that I had enough nutrition ready in the bloodstream) to the sauna for several rounds
  • foam rolled (or smashed as Kelly Starrett would say) every evening for at least 30 minutes
  • 1 hour nap after training and my after workout meal