Favorite Shoulder Builders?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Rush88 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Rush88 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
CT, what about strict OP? Should it be viewed more as assistance and the focus on Push Press when it comes to chasing increased numbers/performance? Or the other way around?[/quote]

I see the strict press as an inferior movement versus the push press. In the push press you should be able to use a significantly heavier load, putting more tension on the shoulders (and other muscle groups). In terms of performance there is no comparison. In terms of only building muscle tissue, a case could be made for strict pressing AND for push pressing. So if someone only cares about improving his look and not on being able to perform as well, the strict press can be a good main exercise.

There is also the fact that not many people can do a proper push press. Most basically use the body to throw the barbell upward, but in a forward arc (bar ending in front of face) which basically does nothing for you. When they dip down they either let their torso tilt forward or their hips move forward which also lead to pressing the barbell forward (avoiding the most important position of the push press: the overhead position).

In a proper push press when you dip down the torso and hips should move down in a fairly straight line (if you have long legs you should push your knees out when dipping down). And when you press up, at the moment the barbell leaves the shoulders you should be on your toes and the chest rolled up toward the ceiling (to press in a slight backward angle).

Then when you lock the barbell overhead, the bar should be behind the ears, not directly above the head with the head/chest pushed forward and the hips slightly back.

To me, the strict press is not a great assistance lift for the push press as it doesn’t teach the same movement pattern. That having been said I do not see the push press as a great assistance exercise for the military press either. They are different lifts. [/quote]

What would you consider good assistance lifts for the push press and strict press respectively since you feel those don’t corrlelate that closely to each other when performed in that manner?[/quote]

My favorite assistance exercise is … doing more work on the main exercise.

I’ve always had my fastest progress in push press numbers when I push pressed more often and had the best progress in strict overhead press when I practiced the strict press more.

[/quote]

Makes sense, I asked because I was always under the impression that the two lifts kind of ran parallel to each other. In a way they do its not you should be able to push press more than you strict press and if you can strict press a certain weight you’ll be able to push press it, the difference will lie in your timing and execution of the lift. I never looked at them in the way you described as far as the purposes of each though.

Nice thread especially since I do want to increase my overhead numbers with this upcoming 10 day cycle and after more than likely using a combination of hdl methods and strength layers.[/quote]

Well, if you see the push press as a slightly cheated strict press, then yes both are similar. But I’ve never seen anybody put up big push press numbers thinking this way. The push press is a lot more than a military press in which you use a little momentum to get the bar started. If done right it is a fairly technical lift that has a different recruitment pattern than a military press.

Normally those who see the push press like a cheated military press might push press 20-30lbs more than they can strict press whereas I’ve seen several people with good push press technique, push press 100lbs or more than they can strict press. For example all of the hockey players that I train push press between 70 and 130lbs more than they can strict press (that last one is not a typo).

[/quote]

Yeah I’ve pretty much never gotten the most out of my leg drive or done the push press with the different cues you describe. Cant wait to start using it more as an explosive lift rather than just a shoulder movement.

[quote]jppage wrote:
That “throwing the chest to the ceiling” cue just might be my problem… I must have missed that tip before. I am definitely not doing that.

These little but great bits of Info that CT tells us about are golden.They make you realize that just a small tweak to a movement can make you have that ah ha moment and able to perform the the exercise the right way. [/quote]

*2

I was not to sure how much of a dip to take, now I do :slight_smile:

Big fan of Push Press or anything that requires full on intensity… though high reps are urgh !

great info here

How high should my elbows be when racking the bar? I struggle with front squats because of my wrist flexibility, and I think that I’m doing this exercise as more of a military press than a push press.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
CT, what about strict OP? Should it be viewed more as assistance and the focus on Push Press when it comes to chasing increased numbers/performance? Or the other way around?[/quote]

I see the strict press as an inferior movement versus the push press. In the push press you should be able to use a significantly heavier load, putting more tension on the shoulders (and other muscle groups). In terms of performance there is no comparison. In terms of only building muscle tissue, a case could be made for strict pressing AND for push pressing. So if someone only cares about improving his look and not on being able to perform as well, the strict press can be a good main exercise.

There is also the fact that not many people can do a proper push press. Most basically use the body to throw the barbell upward, but in a forward arc (bar ending in front of face) which basically does nothing for you. When they dip down they either let their torso tilt forward or their hips move forward which also lead to pressing the barbell forward (avoiding the most important position of the push press: the overhead position).

In a proper push press when you dip down the torso and hips should move down in a fairly straight line (if you have long legs you should push your knees out when dipping down). And when you press up, at the moment the barbell leaves the shoulders you should be on your toes and the chest rolled up toward the ceiling (to press in a slight backward angle).

Then when you lock the barbell overhead, the bar should be behind the ears, not directly above the head with the head/chest pushed forward and the hips slightly back.

To me, the strict press is not a great assistance lift for the push press as it doesn’t teach the same movement pattern. That having been said I do not see the push press as a great assistance exercise for the military press either. They are different lifts. [/quote]

Thanks again for this. Had a pretty productive session doing them for the first time in years. The que about getting the bar behind my ears was a big help. Seemed to put everything together for me. Its the day after and the medial head of my delts are just sore like I cant remember.

Is it ok for my kneeds to be slightly bent in the finished position with the bar overhead?

Also for practice, before I got under the bar I was using a 20 lb preset bar, really only focused on the hip drive. Once I was able to consistantly launch the bar off my chest into the air without engaging my upper body i ‘felt’ it, then started adding the press after a bit really focusing on speed and getting the bar in the righ place behind the ears. After a bit I went into my working sets. I do not even know what I was doing before and calling it a push press, this was an eye opener.

Thanks again.

I have heard you mention the Bradford press before (if I am not mistaken). How do you feel about its place in a shoulder program if one has adequate range of motion?

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I have heard you mention the Bradford press before (if I am not mistaken). How do you feel about its place in a shoulder program if one has adequate range of motion?[/quote]

Assistance work at best… not a primary exercise and not even a high level assistance exercise at that. Mostly useful for inducing a rapid pump in the shoulders/sending nutrients to the muscle. But will do little else.

Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…

[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…[/quote]

Right now I’m doing all my push pressing behind the neck. I find it easier to press in the right spot (bar behind the ears). You must have goo external shoulder rotation mobility though. My hockey players also did a lot of it this summer, one actually did 295lbs at a bodyweight of 180… The only downside of BTN push press or jerks is lowering the bar back to the shoulders, which can be brutal if you have any kind of weight. But we have jerk boxes which really helps.

So the Bradford Press would be a poor choice for the Muscle Strength Layer of 3 SETS OF 8-10 REPS @ 50-60% RAMP MAX. Besides the Top-Half Press what would you recommend?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…[/quote]

Right now I’m doing all my push pressing behind the neck. I find it easier to press in the right spot (bar behind the ears). You must have goo external shoulder rotation mobility though. My hockey players also did a lot of it this summer, one actually did 295lbs at a bodyweight of 180… The only downside of BTN push press or jerks is lowering the bar back to the shoulders, which can be brutal if you have any kind of weight. But we have jerk boxes which really helps.[/quote]

What would you recomend to increase external shoulder rotation mobility?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…[/quote]

Right now I’m doing all my push pressing behind the neck. I find it easier to press in the right spot (bar behind the ears). You must have goo external shoulder rotation mobility though. My hockey players also did a lot of it this summer, one actually did 295lbs at a bodyweight of 180… The only downside of BTN push press or jerks is lowering the bar back to the shoulders, which can be brutal if you have any kind of weight. But we have jerk boxes which really helps.[/quote]

That was the same thought process I had.

It does suck, I dragged one of my warm up sets down my neck yesterday,don’t even know how I did it, nice scab developing already.

One thing I’ve noticed it the cheaper the barbell the more it sucks to catch, a nice whippy oly bar feel alright by comparison!

[quote]Ricochet wrote:
So the Bradford Press would be a poor choice for the Muscle Strength Layer of 3 SETS OF 8-10 REPS @ 50-60% RAMP MAX. Besides the Top-Half Press what would you recommend?[/quote]

That would and adequate choice for that section because as a constant tension movement it is well suited for that method.

[quote]MAsteve wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…[/quote]

Right now I’m doing all my push pressing behind the neck. I find it easier to press in the right spot (bar behind the ears). You must have goo external shoulder rotation mobility though. My hockey players also did a lot of it this summer, one actually did 295lbs at a bodyweight of 180… The only downside of BTN push press or jerks is lowering the bar back to the shoulders, which can be brutal if you have any kind of weight. But we have jerk boxes which really helps.[/quote]

That was the same thought process I had.

It does suck, I dragged one of my warm up sets down my neck yesterday,don’t even know how I did it, nice scab developing already.

One thing I’ve noticed it the cheaper the barbell the more it sucks to catch, a nice whippy oly bar feel alright by comparison![/quote]

And a real olympic bar doesn’t have any middle knurling, which reduced the risk of scratching your neck.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…[/quote]

Right now I’m doing all my push pressing behind the neck. I find it easier to press in the right spot (bar behind the ears). You must have goo external shoulder rotation mobility though. My hockey players also did a lot of it this summer, one actually did 295lbs at a bodyweight of 180… The only downside of BTN push press or jerks is lowering the bar back to the shoulders, which can be brutal if you have any kind of weight. But we have jerk boxes which really helps.[/quote]

That was the same thought process I had.

It does suck, I dragged one of my warm up sets down my neck yesterday,don’t even know how I did it, nice scab developing already.

One thing I’ve noticed it the cheaper the barbell the more it sucks to catch, a nice whippy oly bar feel alright by comparison![/quote]

And a real olympic bar doesn’t have any middle knurling, which reduced the risk of scratching your neck.
[/quote]

Am I seeing things wrong? When I look at videos of the olympics, it looks like there’s center knurling.

Say, at 1:19:05 in this video:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Ct, do you feel that the behind the neck push press has much merit? Provided Shoulder mobility and health was okay?

I find the movement way more natural, although I do worry I use too much leg and not enough shoulder at current weights…[/quote]

Right now I’m doing all my push pressing behind the neck. I find it easier to press in the right spot (bar behind the ears). You must have goo external shoulder rotation mobility though. My hockey players also did a lot of it this summer, one actually did 295lbs at a bodyweight of 180… The only downside of BTN push press or jerks is lowering the bar back to the shoulders, which can be brutal if you have any kind of weight. But we have jerk boxes which really helps.[/quote]

That was the same thought process I had.

It does suck, I dragged one of my warm up sets down my neck yesterday,don’t even know how I did it, nice scab developing already.

One thing I’ve noticed it the cheaper the barbell the more it sucks to catch, a nice whippy oly bar feel alright by comparison![/quote]

And a real olympic bar doesn’t have any middle knurling, which reduced the risk of scratching your neck.
[/quote]

Am I seeing things wrong? When I look at videos of the olympics, it looks like there’s center knurling.

Say, at 1:19:05 in this video:

No rough center knurling. It’s a smooth knurling, about 25% as rough as the regular knurling. Some bars have that, but not all of them.

This thread has inspired me to re-include push presses into my training. I removed them because I figured they were not a good shoulder developer due to the momentum & leg drive.

One question about form: Should the bar start in the rack position, or is it okay if it starts in the hands resting on the upper sternum (especially for those with a lack of shoulder flexibility)

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
And a real olympic bar doesn’t have any middle knurling, which reduced the risk of scratching your neck.
[/quote]

Am I seeing things wrong? When I look at videos of the olympics, it looks like there’s center knurling.

Say, at 1:19:05 in this video:

[/quote]

No rough center knurling. It’s a smooth knurling, about 25% as rough as the regular knurling. Some bars have that, but not all of them.[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve never been around a true olympic bar, so I never knew how that worked.

[quote]Ironfreak wrote:
This thread has inspired me to re-include push presses into my training. I removed them because I figured they were not a good shoulder developer due to the momentum & leg drive.

One question about form: Should the bar start in the rack position, or is it okay if it starts in the hands resting on the upper sternum (especially for those with a lack of shoulder flexibility)[/quote]

The bar should start in the rack position. The elbows do not have to be super high, but the bar has to be against the throat and resting on the shoulders. Those who are incapable of racking the bar properly are very unlikely to be able to reach a proper finish position.

Seriously, when you find a mobility issue you should strive to fix it, not change exercise or do the movement anyway but with bad form. If anything it’s great when you have to work on mobility to be able to do an exercise because it really tells you something that might be a injury problem in the future.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
And a real olympic bar doesn’t have any middle knurling, which reduced the risk of scratching your neck.
[/quote]

Am I seeing things wrong? When I look at videos of the olympics, it looks like there’s center knurling.

Say, at 1:19:05 in this video:

[/quote]

No rough center knurling. It’s a smooth knurling, about 25% as rough as the regular knurling. Some bars have that, but not all of them.[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve never been around a true olympic bar, so I never knew how that worked.[/quote]

Powerlifting bars tend of have a rough knurling in the center to make the bar more solid in the squat position. But in olympic lifting a rough knurling is highly uncomfortable for the throat when catching a clean.