T Nation

Fat loss.

I have a hard time believe Vince is as educated on the subjects of nutrition, and exersize as he claims to be.

Claiming that a good percentage of obese people can not loose weight from lifting and dieting correctly is utter crap to anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge about either subject.

He also claims to have owned a gym for, 30 years? Not sure how they do things up there in Canada, but most gym owners down here in San Diego seem to have dozens of success stories and sometimes pictures of clients that come into their gym with proper motivation.

I myself am not a ‘expert’ on anything really. I have however, even without any sort of degree in the field(Yeah, My God… what was I thinking?) given advice and helped some obese people lose weight, simply with the knowledge I have found on this site. Also, EVERY SINGLE obese person, who has followed the guidelines I set for them regarding diet and training has lost a good sum of weight, and they all have kept it off as long as they don’t go back to filling themselves with junk.

Wow…

“Now, what are the laws of physics concerning all obese people?”

“Fluid storage or edema is not storing extra energy”

Hey Vince, aren’t you the inventor of the solar powered flashlight? LOL, keep up the good work! How about tossing in some Hitler quotes in your next post?

Vince - who ever said anything about it being easy? Quite to the contrary, we have all said it takes commitment, dedication, and constant effort. We all know that better than anyone. But the benefit of a healthy lifestyle is worth the effort. But I do believe your statement that it’s “not easy” sums it up - most of the unhealthy people you claim gave it a fair try, in reality, quit all to soon because “it wasn’t easy”. They want an easy fix to the problem they’ve created for themselves through years of self abuse and when they find the solution isn’t “easy”, they go back to their “easy” lifestyle and find something other than themselves to blame, because it could never ever be their fault. Weak people never take responsibility for their actions.

Not to beat a dead horse but I’ll just add my little story as to why Vince you are pretty much wrong in YOUR assumptions about what fat people can’t do and apparently all your degrees and qualifications don’t mean jack. For my entire life (I’m 19) my dad has been about 6-1 350lbs, a big boy if you ask me, he was pretty fat. After 19 years he was still about exactly the same size, maybe even a little bigger over time. Then four months ago he found out that he was diabetic and that he had two options: change or go on insulin (and duel with death). Three months later and he had lost 100lbs, less than three in fact, about 2.5. What did he do? No weights, no revolutionary t-mag diets or programs, he invoked a little old fashioned EFFORT. He started walking (yes WALKING, no intense cardio)and heavily watching and regulating what he was eating. If that doesn’t prove you wrong I don’t know what does. It just takes a little effort thats all, for fat people, for skinny people, for bodybuilders, for everyone. Don’t create a cop out for fat people by saying they can’t change, that’s just doing THEM an injustice.

I think it is truly unfortunate that fat individuals are made to be a laughing stock. I think it is sad that certain individuals on this site (and probably others) go to the NAAFA discussion board and mock or otherwise insult the people there. Both my parents are overweight as is my sister. One of my best friends and my roommate from law school was very overweight. She died at a young age last August as a result of complications associated with diabetes. During the entire time we were roommates, she continually had problems which grew worse and worse as a result of her diabetes which (according to what she told me her doctors told her) was further complicated by her weight. Her name was Brenda and I miss her. She wasn’t lazy (she finished near the top of her class at a top 20 law school and also received an MBA). She ended up being employed by a top tier law firm and from all accounts was well thought of. My parents and my sister are some of the hardest working (and intelligent) people I have ever met. I work in a top law firm in Los Angeles along with other attorneys who finished highly ranked in their class at very good law schools. Many of these people have extremely bright minds and work hours many of you wouldn’t beleive under stress unimaginable to most. Many of these people are overweight, or heading there very quickly. So, no, fat people are not lazy, stupid and slothful.

That being said, my parents, sister and Brenda all would start and stop diets and exercise programs only to fail time after time, mostly because they did not want to work hard at that particular aspect of their lives. I tried over and over again to tell my mom that she had to perform serious compound movement resistance training if she wanted long-term results. My mother, a hard-working intelligent woman, never listened to me. Instead she would go from one diet to the next, and perform the same aerobics tapes 3 days per week. No progressive resistance. No use of Seyle’s law. At least my mother tries. My father (despite his PhD), sister (despite her double major with honors) and my friend (order of the coif) never really did exercise much for whatever reason. All four of them tried bizarre diet afer bizarre diet however, only to fail time and again. Or started and stopped exercise programs time and time again. No one listened to my cries that they do not starve themselves or give up the food they want, just eat slightly less of it. The one time my sister actually started taking my advice, she started to completely reshape herself. Then, inexplicably, after about three months, she just quit. Overweight people may not be slothful, stupid or lazy, and they may have tried lots of exercise and diets, that doesn’t mean that they are experts, even in their own bodies. IMHO it means that the cost-benefit ratio of waatchinbg what they eat day in and day out and making a commitment to regular strenuous and effective exercise is too great – this is assuming they genuinely know how to lose fat safely and effectively. By way of contrast, a man a met in bootcamp in the USMC was very overweight (almost embarrassingly so for the military) and extremely out of shape. By the time we finsihed infantry school some months later, he was lean-mean killing machine. Why? He was forced to eat right and exercise until (even after bootcamp) it became an ingrained habit.

Moreover, I ask again, what is the purpose of NAAFA? It appears to be more than a support group for overweight people sick of being teased. It seems to be more than a place for people who are happy with the way they look meeting other people similarly situated. It seems to me that it is, instead, trying to use lobbying and various legal or pressure means to redistribute the costs of their obesity to others. Why is it wrong for an airline to charge additional ticket costs for a passenger who takes up more than one seat? Why must a businesss selling fitness be forced to take an instructor who does not promote the image they wish to project? Why must car companies reconfigure their vehicles to accomodate individuals of extremely large physical size? Why is it wrong for collegiate cheer squads to put weight restrictions on cheerleaders who will be thrown into the air? Why should insurance rates not be higher for those in higher risk categories? Why must fashon magazines have models they wish to see rather than the disugustingly emaciated models that, for some inexplicable reason, women like to see? Why should the military, fire departments and police maintain weight (and/or bodyfat) standards? There seems to be an attitude at NAAFA (at least when I visited and posted a grand total of two messages there some time ago) that the world must be forced accomodate them, by legal action of necessary. It is one thing to decry demonization and humiliation… it is quite another to demand accomodations. As I said, I do not request special accomodations with the NBA due to my height (5’7"). Guess what, studies show that taller men get promoted faster than shorter men, so do good looking people – one outta two aint bad :slight_smile: – but that’s just the way it is… I am not going to complain about it, I will just work harder. In the same vein, rather than say, “oh well, I am not attractive to the majority of men” NAAFA posters seem to think that men who are not attracted to them are shallow or that men like to women with an hourglass figure seek to control them. I guess the studies showing that men throughout history and across diferent cultures have always found the hourglass figure (albeit somewhat heavier than today) to be attractive can be completely discounted. I see, it is nature when it comes to obesity, but nurture when it comes to attraction.

Additionally, as I stated above, an organization that is probably populated mostly by people who are unhappy about their appearance is subtly performing a disservice to the people who seek affirmation by refusing to admit that diets and exercise work in most all cases when properly performed. It would be different if the website stated that the purpose was moral support (not diet and exercise) and took no stand on the issue. Instead, the very rules of the site take a position, a mantra, of you will, that is oft repeated (or at least was) by the members – “diets don’t work, you were born to be whatever size you are.” This is a lie. French adults have obesity rates of about 8%. Among children, the rates have magically climbed to about 33%. This has nothing to do with genetics (“nature”), it has to do with behavior (“nurture”). It is probably because French children eat calorie dense food like McDonalds and spend their free time in front of a computer instead of outside. One generation’s genetic code did not magically become altered.

This is not an excuse for people to antagonize or ridicule or troll NAAFA members, but that doesn’t mean we can question the truth of their statements, the apparent or perceived goals of the organization and the incorrect message they are disseminating. I think the tone of NAAFA from the brief time I read the posts there was not about support, but more about being bitter and angry at “thin” people and encouraging complacency with an issue that is clearly causing pain to their members lives. I am Jewish and grew up in an entirely WASP neighborhood of Seattle (I knew no other Jews growing up). I was teased because I was different. However, I do not feel the need to be on a Jewish support groups, discussing Jewish issues vis-a-vis how the country is not made for us. Why not? Because being a Jew does not define me and it is something I am proud of. By way of contrast, by sole virtue of their prenence on the NAAFA boards, size does define many of the fat people there and it is not something they are pround of. If they were, they wouldn’t be posting on the NAAFA – it wouldn’t matter to them. Since it clearly does matter to them and is a source of pain for many, to be blunt, how dare the NAAFA lie to them?

vince, your edema example is pretty much putting the cart far out in front of the horse. Get someone morbidly obese down to 10-20% BF then worry about edema. The fluid may go away somewhat on its own! at the very least the individual will be healthier.

Good people of t-mag. Please do not confuse two issues. There is no point arguing with me about the laws of physics or bodybuilding theory because that is not what is at issue. If I want to do that in a technical or specific way I will attend to that in another thread. We are not arguing about my theories about hypertrophy and fat loss.

What is at issue is what many intelligent fat people say about past efforts at fat loss. From the many stories it is clear that they do not get the same results as those on this board. When we hear the stories we discover that many did lose weight but somehow regained that and more later. Oh, the experts and non-experts alike will point out they did not persist and of course they are going to regain weight. Well, we should be careful to claim that we know what will happen to fat people when they attempt to lose fat. Should they lose fat? Yup, we would bet our houses on it. Do they lose fat? Sometimes, for a while. Then they remain fat in the long run.

Now this is not the forum to explain why fat people regain their weight. We all know people who have had problems reducing. I suppose there are many theories and factors involved. Humans, afterall, are complicated agents and lots of factors combine to make us who we are, including our bodies.

I think it is obvious that most fat people are never going to be bodybuilders or embrace such a lifestyle. That is, afterall, their choice, just like it is for everyone. I know the benefits of brief workouts and it amazes me that I can still grow at my age by doing infrequent and very brief workouts.

I was trying to put the position of the size acceptance people here to give you people some idea of how others view fat loss and bodybuilding or resistance training. I do hope that more people will embrace what we have to offer. In the meantime it is wise to encourage everyone and criticise no one. Tell fat people how to diet and exercise and keep it off. That is more helpful than suggesting they are lazy and stupid. Don’t you agree?

Vince, you said…“Exercise and dieting should work with fat people but the truth is results have not been consistent or significant.”

Would you agree that is because these fat uninformed people consistently go about exercise and diet in the wrong way?

For some of your qualifications that you state, you really make little sense. Here are my qualifications: I’m 25, I don’t own a gym, I lift at a gym 4 times a week for about an hour each time. I watch what I shovel in my mouth and I read anything related to lifting and nutrition that I can get my hands on. I suppose those creditials won’t cut it for me to post my opinions but you can argue with the laws of math. Consume less calories that you expend and you will lose weight.

I’m going to have to throw in my 2 cents. I think that Mr. Vince knows jack shit and is making up info about himself so that we respect him and listen to him. Vince also seems to be ignoring all the people who are posting their success stories. READ my friend, lots of people here have been considered fat and now they are not. You say that losing fat is not easy. Well I doubt being a fat person is easy. In fact fat people get laughed at, have problems with everything designed for a normal person. Sitting on a bus seat, theatre, walking through rotating doors. Hell there’s lots of things that are very embarrasing and can’t be easy for them. Yet they still put up with that. The worst part is places like NAAFA are trying to make it easier for them to live a fat lifestyle. In fact it’s almost rewarding them for their stupidity! Vince, you seem to repeat yourself quite often, repeating the same point over and over again. At the same time you mention one point and then after getting flamed quite a bit, slowly start changing your mind and altering your views. Let me tell you about a friend of mine. He is always buying magic pills to try and help him lose weight. In fact he’s always telling me how he barely eats and can’t lose weight. He goes to the gym often, he is not FAT but he is not lean. I have offered to help him lose weight many times. He doesn’t take my advice. I wrote a new routine for him because he’s been using the same one for years. He said he tried it but it was too hard and went back to his old one. I tell him i will write out his entire diet for him but all he has to do is follow it. But of course he prefers subway, coke, and all those great carby foods. The fact is that a lot of those people are just like my friend, they are better at complaining than taking action. Too bad complaining doesn’t burn calories.

Guys, just ignore Vince. He posted the entire thread of this conversation at NAAFA board. I guess he’s trying hard to please fat ladies so he can get his fat fetish fulfilled.

BTW – having a degree or two does not make you an expert. Anyone can sit through some classes, agree w/ professors blindly, and pass exams and get a degree.

One more thing – healthy hypocaloric diet and exercises can help anyone lose weight. For people as fat as NAAFA members, they’ll still lose weight eating 2000 cal/day (even women) as long as they workout intensely. Fat people aren’t so special that they’re somehow blessed (or cursed) to be fat forever no matter what they do. Tell them to stop blaming everyone but themselves for their fatness when you hang out w/ them again.

So you went to uni, won a bodybuilding contest over 30 years ago and have written a couple of articles for Ironman… and now you think you are one of only a select few who are qualified to give advice on health and fitness matters. What a Crock!!
Going to university obviously has benefits, but, as Charles Poliquin once noted, some of the best coaches never even finished high school. If I had to choose between following the advice of someone like Louie Simmons, who gained his vast knowledge in the real world, and whose theories have been proven in the real world, or someone like yourself who seems to think that because he has university qualifications that he has an automatic claim to ‘expert’ status, there would be no contest- I would go with the advice of Mr Simmons anyday!
To this day I still hear dipshit university trained nutritionists recommending the same high carb/low fat nutritional dogma that they were inculcated with at uni. They recommend this type of eating for weight loss even though it does a sterling job of raising insulin levels, inhibiting fat burning and causing the body to preferentially burn glucose instead of fat. They recommend it to cardiac patients and those at ‘high risk’ of heart disease even though evidence shows this style of eating worsens ones cardiac health.
Your attitude strikes me as rather arrogant. You claim that people on this forum are not experts and are not qualified to give advice. However, unlike yourself, most of the people on this forum are not proclaiming themselves to be experts. That you felt compelled to make such a statement, along with your open challenge for a debate, indicates to me that you have some sort of problem. Maybe you are attention-starved, believing that your educational qualifications and other experiences entitle you to command a special attention, respect and status, and you are miffed at not getting it. Tough luck!! If you want recognition over and above what you have now, go out and earn it! You remind me of these disgruntled ‘intellectuals’ who despise capitalism because it frequently allows hard working folks with minimal formal education to achieve great wealth, far in excess of what those with more extensive formal education can command. People like yourself need to realise that sitting in a classroom is only one aspect of getting an ‘education’.
As for your claims that people on this forum are not qualified to give advice, this is an internet forum, open to anyone who would like to participate. As with any forum one must realise the advice ranges from great to poor and must accept responsibility for acting on any such advice.
I think I would speak on behalf of many others on the forum when I say that I don’t consider myself to be an ‘expert’. However I do believe I have learnt a lot from my experiences in my pursuit of health and fitness and am always eager to learn more. I have obtained a lot of useful info on this forum and every now and then I contribute when I feel I have got something of interest to say.
As for your statements about fat folks, I don’t believe anyone should be unfairly discriminated against. However I am sick and tired of hearing overweight people whine about how they can’t lose weight, and then watching them bury their face in a bag of chips or devouring yet another ‘low fat’ bread roll. I don’t for one minute buy this bullshit that the majority of fat people are suffering from some special disorder that prevents them from losing weight. People like yourself who encourage this victim-mentality are not doing these folks any favours. All the wussy, feel-good, politically correct bullshit in the world won’t help these folks in the slightest. They need to accept responsibility for their condition and work diligently to correct their condition. Sure, it is harder for some than others, but as other posters in this thread have stated, it can be done with a bit of effort and persistence.
“From my experience in gyms I would say that exercise doesn’t seem to impact much on body composition’- what planet have you been working out on!!?? This has to be one of the dumbest fucking statements I have ever heard!
‘Please do not go to other sites to cause trouble… True experts do not go around giving advice and blaming and belittling people…’- Vince, you should take your own advice!!

Well, something that occurred to me about all this, and that nobody has yet mentioned on this incredibly long-winded thread, is the fact that fat people have fat kids. And a large percentage of the population in the statistics is comprised of fat or already obese children. So, if fat people are so unhappy about their state of affairs, and have already tried every form of esxercise and diet to no avail, why is it that, in their misery, they think it’s okay to allow their kids to get fat? And don’t say it is purely genetic! If children sit all the time, eat bad food, and watch and learn their parents inhale volumes of food in front of the TV, what hope have they to be not fat too? And what right do these parents have to allow their children to become unhappy fat people like they are? They should be advocating a healthier lifestyle so their children wouldn’t become like their parents. But instead, a TREAT is going to McDonalds and loading up on greasy food and sugar pop. Activity is a remote control.
I strongly believe that many of the exercise programs attempted by fat people have not worked because the energy exherted is minimal. As someone else said, just “doing something” is a good start, but maximum effort needs to be put out in order to get results. In other words, if you decide to weight lift and always stay at a low weight and the same reps, you will not achieve desired results. You will plateau early and stay there. Same with cardio workouts. If you choose to walk, then walk briskly. A leisurely stroll will not achieve the same results. If you do aqua aerobics or floor aerobics, you must push to your absolute limit, or you may as well not be there.
A healthy, non-fat lifestyle is hard to achieve and maintain in our sedentary, fast food world, but it is possible for everyone who really wants it. And please, spare the children the grief of fat ridicule!

Come on basile many of us here have been fat before, me included. It doesnt feels nice to be teased. But if 99.9% of fat people did more reading on exercising, supplements and effective dieting they would ALL be able to change their body. It doesnt take an einstein brain to figure that out. Neither do you need any studies or whatever f@#! s&^% to figure out what i said. You claimed that fat people dieted till the crows come home. Did you analyse their diet? were they keeping their protein levels high and simple sugars low? did they try to manipulate insulin smartly postworkout and not combining simple sugars with fat?
You claimed that most fat people cannot follow the exercise routine here. Who said anything about using them? It dooesnt take an einstein brain to plan a simple workout for begginers like them. Heck! even heavy duty beats not exercising or doing cardio.
Your post is myopic at best. We are truly not experts, but neither are you when you cant even see the prob with the obese people despite having that much expertise.

I think that if you read Berardi’s response to the statement “a calorie is a calorie” then you will further educate yourself. In the response he makes reference to a study in which individuals’ diets were hypocaloric and they were still getting fatter. How can this be? “If you less than you burn, you will lose weight.” Not so. And yes, Mr. Basile makes little sense…he has put a great amount of his time and energy into contradicting himself over and over again on this thread. I just thought you would be interested in learning a little more since you states you enjoy learning and reading nutrition related articles.

What I want to know now is: Vince, are you getting any dates out of this?

“It seems that many store fluids and that contributes to the obese state. Fluid storage or edema is not storing extra energy. How then does one get rid of this extra fluid? Well, it requires expert medical advice and treatment I suppose.”

Vince, it is becoming painfully obvious that you are lacking in credentials to speak with ANY authority on this subject. Would you have us believe that a 500 pound man who hasn’t seen his toes in years is actually not fat, but retaining 350 pounds of WATER?!? Come on, at least present an argument that a fourth grader can’t instantly deflate.

“The fat people will not accept the information that bodybuilders swear will help them. And bodybuilders will not accept that fat people cannot reduce their fat percentage through applying their information. Who is right?”

Well, if fat people aren’t willing to try the one method that is based in science and has worked for thousands, then what’s the point in claiming that they CAN’T change their bodies? If I tried to learn to ride a bicycle but insisted that I do it while sitting backwards on the seat, despite the fact that the only people who successfully master this skill face forward, most people would rightly label me a fool. But we have fat people in this country who invest THOUSANDS in pills, inferior home exercise equipment, and topical preparations that are designed to “melt the fat away”. All of these methods are ineffective. There is, however, a proven, safe, and healthy way to lose fat. The problem? The proven way isn’t the easy way, and people only want what is easy.

“Lots of people do not get the results they want from training. I have read that here in this thread. Until some really huge commitment and effort was expended nothing much happened. Well, folks, the fat people have been there and done that. That is the truth.”

Not true at all. You seem to have spent a lot of time reading Weider publications. Most of us spend far less time in the gym than people think. About an hour a day, max, with one or two (or more) days off each week is all it takes. The point of becoming healthy and fit is that your OVERALL quality of life is improved.

“I really believe we should be a bit more informed before we pontificate about how easy it is to change bodies and lose large amounts of fat. The theory is rather simple. But the application is not. It is not easy!”

No, it’s not easy. It takes sacrifice and hard work, though not as much as many think. As I stated before the average person is lazy and wants all the benefits without the work. It doesn’t work like that.

Vince, your argument has been so thoroughly discredited that you simply cannot continue along this same line of reasoning any longer. I’d be willing to bet that if some of the regular NAAFA board posters came over here to this forum and asked for help, they would get it in spades. More than just nutrition and exercise info, and just as importantly, they would get ENCOURAGEMENT. But they would only get it as long as it was apparent that they were serious about changing their bodies. Once a person gives up, there is no point in helping them.

One thing is all you need to hear:
The Law of Thermodynamics–you might be able to bend it (ketones in urine, etc. etc.) but you aint going to EVER break it–sure there are some who are simply “genetically unable” to lose the weight, but in the majority–it is indeed laziness, or better yet–a revolt–a revolt against the magazines and all the other horseshit media that espouse “fit and trim” as the way to look–my sister is overweight, very overweight–she knows it, and people aren’t going to lose weight until they are ready–bottom line–why is she overweight?..bad dieting and not enough activity–she is a brain, likes to read and do all kinda academic work, but that ain’t helping the energy expenditure–i do agree with vince, we shouldn’t rip on the fat people unabated–but if they jagg us off, and, like patsy said, comment on our genetics–which is an insult to our work and discipline–then we have every right to fire back at their (fat) assess. No pun intended. I used to be portly–why?..because even though i played hockey, and lifted, my diet was fucked–what did i do?..in grad school i read in my free time about nutrition–about lifting–and i was disciplined as fuck to get chiseled…what happened?..I restructured my diet, got disciplined, and lifted like a crane–what happened?–I got jacked, and then i got ripped, and then i got “big” again–only to rip up again when applying my new found process–I see maintaining a good, bb’er style physique as a cyclic process–you obviously don’t stay “magazine ripped” year round–as vince said, probably unhealthy–but lifting and proper diet are the number 1 ways to partition nutrients towards muscle and not fat–these “overweight” people lack INTENSE discipline–if they really wanted to lose the weight (excluding those who are genetically unable) they could–BOTTOM LINE.
Peace out
A former pudge not bad ass
Vain68
Shouts out to Patsy, and all the rest of us “bad asses” up in here who have worked our ASS off to look the way we do–I know how disciplined and hard it may be–
One last shout out to Vince–for going out on a limb and posting some good quality shit for discussion and/or argument-
I am tired of all the sex shit.

I read the craziest thing the other day. It was on a web page about a new body building supplement that is supposed to revolutionize everything. It is called Myostat or something. In preliminary studies it showed that lowering levels of myostatin leads to a decrease in body fat. Imagine that. There are also a bunch of fat burning agents on the market. Some of this stuff you don’t have to work out at all. Just think if you took it and worked out and ate right. Imagine the possibilities. Pretty soon all the obese people are going to run out of excuses. Even the ones with thyroid and other problems. It will all come to one thing, being lazy. The scientific community is always making advances in supplementation. Especially BIOTEST. Thank God!!!

Thanks for the new reading material. I’ve been off the site for a few months and have been doing my catch up reading of the back issues.

Fat = Lazy? I think the assumption that being overweight equals lazy is so wrong most people on the board must be saying it to make themselves feel better. While I will not refer to the extremely obese (IMO they are fooling themselves in most cases and are seriously risking their life) those people who are at 20-30% BF are not necessarily lazy. What people find important is relative. My sister at about 25% BF is definitely overweight but manages to play a number of sports and is currently pursuing a doctorate at Western U (hooray for Western and Berardi!). The amount of work and dedication it takes for someone to reach that level of education is IMO much more than it takes for the average person to gain a decent physique. I think many people on this board lose perspective on what the general public finds important. If your focus was cooking or music and you weren’t worried about having a great physique why would you put your energy into educating yourself about bodybuilding?

And for those who consider themselves experts - having read plenty of martial arts threads here - a subject I am close to an expert in - and seeing the huge number of people writing as if they are experts in fighting who don’t have a clue I’m afraid of what would happen to me if I randomly chose a poster and took their advice on living a healthy lifestyle.