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Fat Fast Supplements


#1

I want to try Fat Fast for a few weeks (I've only done regular-calorie ketogenic diets before) but I'm not sure which supplements to take.

I'm a complete newbie to supplements, since I know that they're never really necessary [just stick to food, blah blah etc etc etc... especially since I'm only 19], so I've never taken the time to learn about them. But I realize that I'm going to need some supplements to successfully use Fat Fast.

Brock used MD6 and Androsol when he was on Fat Fast. Instead of the MD6, I've decided on giving HOT-ROX a shot to help with the cravings, as it'll probably be much more effective than MD6. As for Androsol, I couldn't find it at Biotest (did they stop selling it?...), nor could I find any newbie information about Androsol on the forums due to the incredibly crappy search engine. So besides the HOT-ROX, I'm not sure about any other supplements.

Basically I guess I just need something to protect against muscle loss. So which one(s) do you guys recommend for that?

And any other supplements that may help?

Would it be worth it to buy some r-ALA to use at the beginning to kick out any remaining carbs out of my bloodstream to really jump start me into ketosis? (I've been able to find a few really good threads here on the forums on r-ALA in the past few days.)

BTW essential stats: 19/5'9"/175/14%?
Goal: lose 10-15 pounds of pure fat and 0 pounds of muscle!

Thanks, any help would be much appreciated!


#2

I've been thinking about updating and coming up with my own Fat Fast-like diet, so I've been pondering some of your same questions.

First things first: You're very young and the Fat Fast is very extreme. I think the diet is a little too extreme for people of any age. I just don't see the need to suffer so much when you can drop fat quite easily with other diet and training manipulations.

Also, the Fat Fast, as originally written, has a very high failure rate and just isn't very healthy.

Okay, all that aside, Androsol is no longer made. MAG-10 is the top prohormone now. HOT-ROX is a great choice, not just because it'll speed up the fat loss process and help with cravings, but because it has a very potent anti-catabolic effect. In fact, most can even gain a little muscle when dieting while using it, which is damned tough to do for an experienced trainer. (See the HOT-ROX Inferno Challenge stuff for more info.)

The question is, can HOT-ROX alone prevent muscle loss when on a stupidly low calorie diet like the original Fat Fast? I'm thinking about trying it, but I'd have to modify the diet, as I just don't like it the way it is. For one thing, I'd add ground flax and maybe guar gum to the shakes for the fiber. (Plus you get some good fats in the flax.) I'd use LC Grow! and Hot-Rox for sure, but I'm kinda stuck after that.

Anyway, maybe that info will help you out some, and I'll keep trying to figure out the ultimate update for this diet. Again, I think a 19 year old guy who's not that big to begin with should consider an alternative route. See these two T-mag articles for other ideas:

My Big Fat Training Program Guide

and

The New Diet Manifesto


#3

There are lots of similar diets. My first exposure to this kind of thing was in the book "Sliced". It was a cyclical ketogenic diet that had the absurdly low calories as the Fat Fast, however, there was a carb-up every 4-5 days or so.

The Fat Fast is very extreme and I would only use it for a short duration. I'm going to do something very Fat Fast-like starting Dec 1 for 21 days. After that its back to T-Dawg 2.0 or something more reasonable.

Perhaps I'll start a log in this or another forum and go day to day.


#4

Oh wow, a response by Shugart himself! Before anything, I just want to say great job on "Merry Christmas, Bob"! It's one of my favorite articles on t-mag!!

Now if you're thinking about making another Fat Fast-type diet, or maybe even just updating it (Part 3?), PLEASE DO!!! How can you guys let a diet like this get outdated? -- a diet which has such an INCREDIBLE impact when done successfully! Please, I implore you, follow your gut instinct and do it!

First things first: yes, I know I'm young but so what? I'm not THAT young. Besides, with the knowledge that I'd be seeing such extraordinary results within just a few short weeks, there will be no suffering! Actually, I've been following a ketogenic diet (not the first time) since last Monday just to see how I'd fare and as a precursor to Fat Fast sometime soon (as soon as I gain knowledge on supplements / wait for them to arrive in the mail). And so far it's been pretty damn easy -- yes, I use a food log; yes I'm getting under 15g carbs a day. I realize that I can get there using other methods, but I've always wanted to try Fat Fast ever since I read it for the first time six months ago. I believe I have gained enough knowledge since then to successfully execute it.

Just as a sidenote, don't confuse my lack of supplement knowledge with lack of knowledge on fitness and nutrition! I've been with t-mag now for eleven months and I've read every single article that has come out since last December, as well as many many many various articles all over the place. I even went back one day and started reading articles from Issue #1... That, combined with information from various other sources and I'd say I'm pretty DAMN knowledgeable for "only" a 19 year old.

Anyway, all that aside: yeah that's what I thought... As for Mag-10, I'd rather not take that, at least for a LONG LONG time. (See char-dawg's response.)

I would try to answer that question by being my own guinea pig, but I don't want to take my chances. I'd rather learn more about supplements and take something else just to be sure that I've got my muscle-loss-stopping agent in place. Plus, I'm a college student on a limited budget, so I can't waste a bottle of HOT-ROX AND a few weeks trying to test something out. I want to do it once, and do it right. (Unless someone else wants to add about their experiences with HOT-ROX's ability to stop muscle loss?)

I'm already taking plenty of flaxseed oil (Udo's), and I'll be looking to get some Colon Cleanse (as recommended by you! in a previous article). Guar gum? Not sure what that is though I've heard it mentioned on these forums quite a few times. Right now I'm using Isopure ZERO CARB protein powder as it has, well, zero carbs, as opposed to the 2 or 3 most low-carb powders have (LC Grow included). A little pricier, but oh well. Plus it tastes pretty good.

Thanks for the help CS, although I guess you're just as stuck as I am, heh. Post back if you think of anything, or maybe write up a new article!


#5

What is your training age, Paul? My comments about your age weren't to imply that you were too uneducated to do the diet, rather, I just hate to see any 19 year old kid doing a keto diet when he's only 175 pounds to begin with. I'd rather see him focus on broader goals.

So how long have you been training? If it's not too long (under a year) I think you could drop fat and build muscle easily with the right program and nutrition plan. You'd very likely look much better with that longer-term goal in mind than just going keto and praying you don't lose muscle.

I also think keto diets are unnecessary. Like I said, you could drop fat just as quickly with a more sensible plan - one that lets you eat something besides protein powder and oil and one that would lead to great long term success.

Remember, the effectiveness of a diet isn't judged by how painful the diet is, how much you suffer when on it, how fast you gain back the fat when it's over, or how many days you can go without taking a dump while on the diet -- all problems of the original Fat Fast.

Anyway, here's some other random info:

  • If you need to save money, drop the Udo's and buy plain flax oil. See Berardi's recent "Naked Truth" article.

  • Don't sweat the 3 carbs in Low Carb Grow. It's the highest quality protein you can get. And besides, it would be nice if you'd support the site that gives you all this great info by purchasing its supplements. Hey, I'm sitting here on Sunday helping you out, you could at least make sure I get a check next month! (smiley face and all that)

  • I'll probably try a modified plan like this in the future with HOT-ROX. My gut tells me this would prevent any muscle loss when combined with the modifications I'd make in the diet.

Now, to further the info exchange, let's think about post-training nutrition, which involves carbs, and cheat meals or refeeds like the ones I suggested in the T-Dawg Diet. How do these elements fit into our new Fat Fast?

Good discussion.


#6

Sigh... I KNEW it was a bad idea to say I'm 19... Please, I ASSURE you, I'm plenty experienced; much more than you think. Let's just get past the age thing. But if you really must know, I've been training since I was 15. I started sophomore year of high school under the supervision of my school's football team. But, as happens to the majority of people, most of the "training" since then has been pretty much wasted due to complete negligence of diet and not really knowing what I was doing in the gym. In reality, I actually started training last December when I found t-mag and the plethora of no-bs information here. So I guess I've been training for quite a while now, both crap training and "true" training for almost a year. But besides that, I think you can tell by my diction and lack of spelling and grammatical errors that I'm not the average teen... So, can we please get past the age thing now?...

Unnecessary? Maybe. But I'd like to try it. Bottom line. Now, this feels really weird saying to a t-mag contributor, but are you going to help me or not? I mean no offense, but I'm just looking for some help with supplements, and any other info I might need.

I actually read that article yesterday. A good read. I actually use to use Barlean's Flaxseed Oil before Udo's and I don't think I can ever switch back. The taste of Udo's is much more palatable. Although I haven't tried any other brand of flaxseed oil besides Barleans, I think I'll stick with Udo's unless someone can recommend one that doesn't taste so bad?

I can't ignore the 3g in LC Grow (or any other powder) as I'm trying to get as close as possible to 0 as possible. That's an extra 12g a day, at least, I won't have to think about! But don't worry, I'll at least be buying a couple bottles of HOT-ROX soon enough.

As for details while on Fat Fast: PWO nutrition will consist of 0g carbs, 50g protein, except maybe on weekends 50g carbs (powdered Gatorade: dextrose) if I have an especially hard workout (front squats, deadlifts, snatch/overhead squat complex, etc).

I plan on having a carb-up, a la Lyle McDonald, every other weekend. Although I plan on being on Fat Fast for only 4 weeks or so, depending on what results I'm getting. I won't have any cheat meals, the carb-up consisting of low-gi carbs etc, unless I'm feeling like I really need the cheat.

By the way, Chris, please. I see you still think I'm an idiot: "let's think about post-training nutrition, which involves carbs, and cheat meals or refeeds like the ones I suggested in the T-Dawg Diet." I know post-workout nutrition involves carbs, and I read the T-Dawg Diet (1, 2 and the Q&A) at least half a dozen times. Please, you've got to get it out of your head that anyone under 20 is a complete moron when it comes to fitness and nutrition.


#7

Now here's a great topic brewing! I have been trying to toy with the same topic myself. One thing that I have noticed (at least with me)...I respond best (fat loss) with the PF meals...however after 3-4 days, I really start to suffer. The last 4 months I have really been employing post workout nutrition (whey + dextrose). I've noticed how my recouperation periods have shortened. So maybe by employing fat fast's macro nutrition profile with calorie cycling - with the inclusion of post workout nutrition. If the subject were to split their post workout nutrition (say there were anywheres between 50-75 grams of simple carbs) - giving energy for the training sessions as well as post wotkout...it would seem that the trainee would be able to work through the session without falling on their face as well as reap the benefits of the remaining post carbs?

I know this post is somewhat all over the place...but hopefully you can understand the gist of it. I am also they type of guy who needs a carrot dangled in front of him...so possibly a controlled cheat meal once every week or 10 days?

On a side note...I always get a kick how the number of fat fast questions that surface around holidays/ breaking points in semesters pop up. Not ripping you for it...because I am simply right in line behind you..ehehe. It would be cool to plan a "post Thanksgiving" to December 21-23 sprint to get the ball rolling. Possibly a plan to deal through the 24th/25th - end bust out the year's end.


#8

I'm not here to persuade you on weather to use HOT-ROX or Mag-10 or whatever, just to tell you the supplements I use while on my extreme ketogenic diets. I do 3 week periods of 1300 Cal (70 fat/30% Protein) ketogenic diets while staying under 15 Carbs a day. For the first 2 days, I take in 0 carbs while taking 1500mg of ALA per day. After I'm in ketosis, I take 3 doses of 1000mg of Vitamin C per day, and 2 doses of 400IU's of Vitamin E per day for antioxitants. I try to take in 15-20 grams of Fiber (I use Metamucil) to keep my pooper working as well as taking two multivitamins a day. Durring the last 2 weeks of my 3 week diet phase, I take my chosen fat loss supplement ( I still use MD6, but use whatever you want).

I hope this helps you a little with the supplement question. Good luck with your diet.


#9

Awesome info, cassius! I have a few of questions for you: first, how did you split up the ALA dosage for those first few days? What was your training like? (weights, cardio?) And what kind of results did you see from Fat Fast? (how much fat loss? any strength loss?)

Thanks cassius!


#10

Chris's first message suggested adding ground flax. You started talking about flax oil. He recommended the ground flax for the fiber, not the EFA's! Ever tried a fiberless diet? Then, zero-carb whey isolate protein powder is not as good for anything but post-workout. Consider glycemic response, quicker digestion, greater thermic effect from a slower digesting source, etc... Yet you claim to be knowledgeable about fitness and nutrition. You've been here a year or so... He's done this for his career, yet you think his concern about your age is just him being ridiculous? Training age is an important factor. He just asked about that and your weight, bodyfat percentage, etc, which we still don't know. Just because you don't like the advice you get doesn't mean you should assume it was bad advice based on false assumptions. Show some respect.


#11

paul, labeling laws allow makers to say something is fat free or zero carb if it has a half a gram of less of fat or carbs. So a zero carb protein powder probably still have a couple of carbs if you use more than one scoop.

Other than that I think you really misunderstood what chris was telling you.


#12

Let's do a little math. If you start with 175 lbs and 14% BF, (24.5 pounds fat) and lose 15 pounds of pure fat then you'll have a BF% of (24.5-15)/(175-15) or 6%. Do you really want to get that extreme?


#13

late stage tip:
try bumping up daily H2O and L-carnitine (yeah, I know bad rep but give it a try at bf <6%)toward end of diet...had a few contest prep cycles where I theorized these were rate-limiting for ME at about wk 6 on keto-dieting and this small change worked out well when I included in my program, even w/ glycerol base. bump vit c and anything else you rely on for immunosupport, easy to get sick on keto...
Hope these help but really just listen to CS dude. Shugart is making an important point on emphasizing training age and level of experience(seriously, how much experience do you have dieting w/ your current bf/wt?), where's your controls?...pure fat loss without muscle loss is elusive for everyone; if not impossible w/out vitamin s, uncouplers or aberrant genetics...you need to run AT LEAST 2-3 keto cycles before you can address YOUR individual variables that you have not yet experienced. T-mag has a lot of answers for your questions but there are even more that need to be answered in the FIELD. My point is until you've experimented repeatedly w/ some of the other field-tested diets that work, you won't have adequate controls for your fat fast experiment.

Temporal variability in insulin sensitivity, thyroid function, neurophysiology, training effects and a lot of other variables which you have probably read about... don't always turn out the way you think when you're flat, constipated, wracked with headaches and draggin' ass to class.

I do believe that you're a very motivated and intelligent guy but HONESTLY, you come across like an egotistical asshole...maybe thats why there's so few useful responses on this thread. Learn how to vibe w/ people and you'll get so much more out of this forum.

Anyway, I hope you're also sharp enough to distinguish a personal attack from constructive criticism.

Good luck dude.

Ronin


#14

Well, would Ribose be effective for pre/postworkout? I've seen where the servings are only 2-3 grams and that's at an effective dosage, as well as some other form of hi GI carbs at a moderate level (20g or so). Or, if we take the route of a cyclic (cheat meal) fat fast, just take in Surge post workout, no cheat meals whatsoever. I think that sounds about right, or I could just be raping nutrition methodologies and talking out my ass.
As a side note, is ribose effective? I suggest it because it got all this press for all of five minutes and poof, it's gone.


#15

Paul2200, congrats on doing your homework and on your knowledge of correct spelling and grammar! (The Internet can be a painful place for former English teachers like me. But I do use informal usage on the forums here.)

I realize that you are probably determined to do the Fat Fast diet. But consider my experience along with Chris Shugart's advice. I tried the Fat Fast the very first time I wanted to lose some fat (getting older does suck in some ways). I figured, I'm smart, I research things extensively, I have superior information, so I can dump this fat a lot faster than the average stair-stepping Weight Watcher. Well, for the time I stayed on it (somewhere around 10 days, I forget though I have a log of it somewhere), I did not lose ANY fat. And I felt unbelievably awful.

Now I know many people DO lose fat, but the people you hear from on the forum may very well be a self-selecting group (in the lingo of experiemental research). People who have success may very well be more likely to write their experiences on the forum, whereas people who fail may move on to other information and not write about their failed experiences. This was certainly true for me.

At the same time I tried it, I put my husband on the Fat Fast and he did quite well. He lost a lot of fat quickly. He then transitioned to T-Dawg and continued to lose fat quickly. He even felt good. BUT at some point he developed some of the most serious carb cravings I've ever seen. When he abandoned the diets and started eating carbs again, he blew up like a balloon. You may think that you won't abandon your diets, but cravings can be powerful and physiologically real. Brock Strasser didn't plan to end his Fat Fast experiment with a doughnut (or is it donut?) binge, either.

Chris Shugart has a lot of experience, as does John Berardi. Berardi noted evidence of reduced insulin sensitivity when coming off ketogenic diets. This certainly seemed to happen to my husband -- and he is still not the same, 2+ years later. It's something to consider. You're only 19 so you will be able to lose this fat relatively easily. Even with NO supplements and a non-ketogenic diet. It doesn't seem as exciting to lose it slowly, but many of us have noticed that the quick-fix approach is perhaps not always worth it in the long run. It's psychologically appealing, but exacts a price on the physiology.

I'll also chime in my experience with Hot-Rox. I experienced some MAJOR carb cravings - for bad carbs - when I started Hot-Rox. And I was NOT on a ketogenic diet so I was eating some good carbs. There's a post on the forum somewhere, with helpful advice.

If you do decide to go ahead with the Fat Fast, just be aware of the negative possibilities as well as the exciting fat loss. Your body is gonna do what it's gonna do, no matter how smart you are. If your thyroid production and insulin sensitivity plummet, it may take a lot longer to recover than it would have been to lose fat steadily, and more slowly, during that time.


#16

Great post, andersons!! Personal experience is powerful, compelling and persuasive.


#17

I have decided not to do Fat Fast.

To make a long story short, I'm going to do SwoleGenix instead!


#18

I think you should reconsider, personal experience is knowledge...You could at least try it out for 2 weeks and see how you react to a strict ketogenic diet.