T Nation

Fat Fast Round 2???

Hey everybody…I know it has been a while since I posted, but I need some help. As most of you know, I had been doing fat fast for a while before Xmas. However, going back to school, I thought it would be easier, and more of a life long solution, to do T-Dawg 2.0. However, I am not having much luck with it. My weight has not changed at all in a week. (no, I am not consuming too many calories) I had great results when I did fat fast, and I really would like to have some more of those results. But I am worried that I would not have the energy to be in class all day and studyin all night with such calorie restriction.

So—long story short, is there a way that I can modify fat fast, without changing its intentions, so that I have a little more energy? Like, perhaps having a few eggs in the morning, along with a low-carb shake, then having 3-4 more shakes throughout the course of the day and a salad at dinner? As before, the only supplements I would be taking are Md-6, methoxy, flax oil/fish oil, and my protein…

Thanks in advance for all your help!!

Ok, this may or may not help you but I got leaner than I’d ever been on the following plan. This is really a combination of many diets out there and it is easy for those of us in school.
Breakfast: MRP with frozen fruit + flax OR cheese omlette + oatmeal
Pre-workout: 1 scoop whey
Post-workout: 2 scoops whey + 1 scoop glycocarb-optional
Dinner: Meat + steamed veggies + salad + stachy carbs-optional
Bedtime: 1-2 scoops combo protein + flax-optional
It doesn’t seem like much and it isn’t. It is something like the Warrior Diet in that you wait all day to have a real meal. I have carbs for breakfast for energy and then that is it. I say ‘optional’ for carbs because if I can go with out I will. Also, post-workout I sometimes omit carbs - works for me. Also this is an instinctive approach - if you get hungry, eat, but keep it small - some cottage cheese,handful of nuts, a piece of cheese, a salad, etc. The goal here is to satisfy hunger, not fill up. Finally, I allow myself to eat all the veggies I want throughout the day - makes things alot easier if you like em.

bets as i have tried to explain to you and pugs before, just come to my website i will help you. good luck and keep “sweating to the oldies.”

Hi, Girl!!! It’s awfully good to see you on the board.

If I can repeat back to you what you said, you’re looking at doing FF with more carb calories and probably a few more calories in general so that you have better energy levels. The problem with FF is that if you take in the amount of calories it recommends, you’re going to lose LBM if you’re not getting some pro-hormone (or steroid) assistance. It’s just not a good diet for women.

Could I make you a counter offer? What you experienced with T-Dawg is pretty normal. The maintenance calorie numbers come in a little high for women. And if your BF is on the high side, it’s better to calculate calorie requirements based on LBM. Myself, I diet at a multiple of 13 times LBM!!! T-Dawg’s numbers are only a starting point. Adjustments usually have to be made.

So just picking numbers out of thin air, if you were 200 pounds and 30% BF, that would equate to 140 pounds of LBM. You would multiply that number by 15 (to get maintenance calories (supposedly)), which is 2100 calories. Since you’ve been on the diet a week already, skip eating at maintenance for a week and drop the 500 calories so that you’re eating/dieting at 1600 calories/day.

I tell you what. If you’re interested, run the numbers above and get a starting point for me. I’m pretty confident that we can get T-Dawg working for you (if you’re interested), and I have some other ideas if push comes to shove.

What say ye?

From the current T-mag:

  1. That diet didn’t work for me.

What they're really saying:

"I thought I was more knowledgeable than the author so I upped the calories, switched around the macronutrient ratios, didn't use the supplements recommended, and came up with my own training program."

Listen, if the T-dawg isn't working for you, then you have a medical problem and need to get to the doctor. A person cannot eat below maintenance calories, reduce carbs, exercise, and not lose fat. Either you're eating Oreos in your sleep or you have a medical condition. And the Fat Fast sucks. Even some of the T-mag staff admits it. Read the Dog Pound post on this topic.

Isnt it possible that Bets is sticking to the diet and that the calculation of maintanance calories is not accurate for her? Especially since if i remember correctly the formula for maintanance calories was a factor to be multiplied by bodyweight. Now since bets is both female and quite overweight wouldnt that mean that relative to the average male reader her metabolism would be slower (less muscle) and the required calories by the formula higher (more fat weight)…making it very possible to stick to the diet exactly and not lose weight?

If that’s the case then she needs to do what the diet says and adjust calories based on her food log and weekly results, not quit after one week. After reading all of her posts on this forum, I don’t think anything will “work” for her. If she doesn’t take a close look at what she’s doing and her lifestyle, then she’s going to be one of those women who yo-yo up and down their whole lives and always seem to be on a diet, yet still fat. Her quick fix attitude leads to failure. Pardon my reality check.

I thinkit was Patrica that suggested that she up’s activity rather than cut cals greatly when preparing for a comp…I took this advice and created 30g carb diet that was only about 500 cals below needs. I avoided sugar or fried foods, got about 70% from protein and the rest from good fats…i did morning cardio 5 days a week (never over 120 bpm)…This worked great or me i went down to 11% bf and did not lose too much lbm…now this is what worked for me i used foods i know my body responds well to and did refeeds every 3 weeks…thats all i got right now but if you have questions i will answer

Wow, Cappx: just thought I’d “lurk” through this thread…glad to see that it worked out for you! It has for me for a LONG time! (picking up activity levels/not cutting calories).

What I do also is eat more starchy carbs earlier in the day and eat more fibrous carbs as the day progresses. That works, too. No carbs before bed/at night.

Bets: I would do as Tampa-Terry recommends and look into the T-Dawg and modify it accordingly for you, i.e. cut calorie recommendations a bit. Also, as for energy to maintain concentration, even for studying: have you thought of trying Power Drive? It's certainly great for needed energy for hard training sessions, but I also use it for when I expect to be sitting at my drawing table all day. I concentrate much better. Amazing stuff.

How's the training coming along, too? Could you do me a favor and post a day or two from your food journal? I'm curious as to what exactly you've been eating. Especially lately.

Mr. Meany—“based on her threads, I dont think any diet would work for her”. Um excuse me, but what part of my threads lead you to believe that Fat fast didnt work for me? It did, so you can shut the hell up if you think I need to re-evaluate my life so im not one of those “yo-yo” dieters. The only reason I stopped Fat fast was because you are only supposed to do it for 28 days. So thats that.

As far as calculating my calories based on my lean mass, I think thats a great idea. I would be more than happy to do that. My only worry about that is that I might go into overtraining consuming 1600-1800 cals daily and working out intensly.

As far as whoever asked for a food log…this is just a quick one bc I have to run to class in a few mintues…BUT…(and keep in mind that this is all dining hall food and we dont have access to grilled chicken or fish that often).

Breakfast (7:15am)
3 or 4 eggs
1/4 cup cottage cheese with peaches
1/4 cup oatmeal
Lunch (12pm)
2 hamburgers, no bun (they are the small pre-made ones)
2 glasses crystal lite
Dinner (7:30pm)
2 hamburgers
cheddar cheese
crystal lite
Post workout:
Detour bar
de-lite choc bar (3 carbs, 170 cals)

If thats not specific enough, let me know, oh yeah, plus a cheat meal once a week

Hey, Bets, that was a stroke of brilliance on Patricia’s part, asking for a sample of what you eat. I really see some opportunities, things that will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life.

First and foremost, I’m worried that you’re not getting enough protein. You need a MINIMUM of 1.5g x LBM, divided up into NO LESS THAN 5 meals. Six would actually be better. And you need to be getting your protein EVERY THREE HOURS. These are MAJOR, MAJOR non-negotiable concepts as it relates to protect LBM while dieting. If you have to pack your food and take it with you or buy extra from the dining hall or get a George Foreman Grill and a steamer, do it. Worst case scenario, you could always fill in the blanks with MRPs/protein drinks. But the bottom line is you need to be getting protein every 3 hours, do or die.

Another opportunity (something I’d strongly recommend) is getting high-quality post-workout nutrition. Read up on Surge. I’m sure you’re on a budget, but it makes no sense to break down the muscles without providing it the substrates it needs to make repairs.

Breakfast. If you follow Berardi’s P+F and P+C food combining, you need to make your first meal of the day a P+C meal. Eggs are high in fat (18g for 4 eggs), and the cottage cheese is going to have additional fat as well. If you haven’t done it already, do a search on Berardi on the article archive and read EVERYTHING the man has ever written. The man is brilliant.

One thing that will really help is if you break down and buy a nutritional desk reference ($18) so that you have a better idea of how many fat grams, protein grams and carb grams (not to mention calories) you’re taking in. If you’ve never used one before, you’ll be shocked.

Last thing. You said something about overtraining. How often are you working out, what does your workout consist of, how long are you in the gym, and how much cardio are you doing?

Bets, I don’t think it’s going to take much to kick things into gear. There are a lot of things you’re doing right.

Hey, thanks for all the great input…

I am currently logging my food on fitday.com, so I do know how many calories I am eating, as well as fat, carbs, protein, etc. I was thinking that I was well below my calories, but now, based on the advice that I calculate them based on my LBM, I may not be too far off the mark calorie wise. I do know that I am below my protein, I need to start drinking my isopure again.

As far as workout, I am trying to get to the gym 5 times a week. I do 2 lower body and 3 upperbody lifting workouts ( I had stopped doing any of the specific lifting workouts, just cause the gym is so crowded and had simply broken my workouts into legs, back and biceps, and shoulders, chest, and triceps). On each of those days, I either do 30-60 minutes of cardio, depending on how long i have to wait for pugs to finish his workout : ) I either do my cardio on the elliptical machine or stair stepper.

Oh, and I have been averaging about 1600-2100 cals a day, depending on whether or not I eat breakfast.

Don’t let those guys get to you… You have a lot of great supports on here. Keep up the good work. And both Patricia and Tampa - Terry gave you some good advise. I can’t think of anything to add right now.

Hey, Bets. So yes, that would be good. Pick up your protein, drop your calories per meal by a little bit, but pick up the NUMBER of your meals. Remember, the First Commandment is, “Thou Shalt Eat Protein Every Three Hours.”

Re the cardio, 60 minutes is pushing it a little bit. If I have any sway with you (or hidden powers of persuasion), I’d like to see you limit it to four 30 minute sessions per week. More is NOT better. More is – well, it’s more catabolic.

As far as your workouts go, take a look at Joel Marion’s Ripped, Rugged & Dense. It’s a 5x5 strength program. Hypertrophy programs (3 sets of 8-12 reps) are not complementary to fat loss. The program I recommended, the structure of it and the exercises selected ARE complementary to fat loss. And if you want to get down to it, that’s the filter I run things through for myself. If my goal is fat loss (and it is), what are the things I can do to help me achieve my goal (I’ll do it), what works against my goals (I promise NOT to do it), what will help me get there FASTER (tell me, tell me, please!). So things like limiting cardio to four 30 minute cycles or keeping my workouts.

Let me cut & paste an excerpt from one of Joel Marion’s articles. It sums things up nicely, and it will answer your questions re overtraining.

"Here are some general guidelines for training for fat loss:

  • Train heavy. Work in the 1-5 rep range

  • Utilize mainly compound, multi-joint movements that work a number of muscles simultaneously.

  • On most lifts, lower the weight under control over a period of 2-4 seconds and then explode the weight upward. Feel the muscles work; do not simply lift the weight.

  • Keep the total volume (Sets x Reps) moderately high by keeping the total sets high. Shoot for 50-60 sets per week with no more than 20 sets in a given workout.

  • Train each body part directly once per week. Because you’ll be using compound, multi-joint movements, muscles will be worked in a secondary fashion during other workouts. This is OK and is actually beneficial.

  • Perform 3 sessions of High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) on non-weight-training days first thing in the morning. An example of this type of workout would be to sprint 20 seconds and then rest 40 seconds; repeat 10-15 times. It is okay to supplement with 10 grams of whey protein ~10 minutes prior to your workout to keep muscle breakdown to a minimum. Slow digesting proteins and/or carbohydrates are not acceptable at this time.

Tampa Terry—Thank you so much!!! Your post was so helpful! I will definetly cut back on the cardio, and I will increase the intensity of my lifting workouts…ripped, rugged, and dense looks like it would work well for me…

one question though…is it ok for me to have a clean cheat meal once a week? seeing as I have a long way to go in my weight loss, I just thought it would help…

thanks again!

Yes, absolutely on the cheat meal. When you’re ready to kick that around, let me know. In the meantime, to lay a foundation, search for Joel Marion’s article on cheat meals. There are some points on which he and I differ, but it’s an excellently written article that has a lot of science behind it.

The bottom line is, properly done, a carb refeed (which is what I call them) will boost your metabolism and ENHANCE fat loss.

So there you go, Bets. “Doctor’s” orders. You MUST have a cheat meal once or twice a week. (grin)

once or TWICE? tell me twice is better than once :slight_smile:

That would totally make my day. If i am super strict with my diet 100% of the time, would it be ok to have a “carb refeed” say like, wednesday and saturday?

I’d just like to note that this thread has been useful for me–I’m currently helping my girlfriend’s mom (who at over 300 lbs and 50%+ bodyfat, needs it). This thread has helped me figure out what to emphasize with her.



Dogchild, there’s a book she needs to read that will help her to better understand why she’s dieting the way she is. My belief has always been that with understanding of why you’re doing something comes a greater commitment to the changes we have to make. Get a copy of Rob Faigin’s book, Natural Hormonal Enhancement. It is about dieting, controlling carbs and the use of controlled, highly scientific carb refeeds. It’s only available on the 'Net, so shop for the best price ($30 give or take with shipping)

Bets, yup, that’s the plan. Twice is actually better than once. And they’re done for the purpose of enhancing weight loss. The enjoyment factor is just an added plus. Like the fat-free, no carb icing on the no-cal cake? (grin)