Fat Fast Redux Support Group

Well, day 4 of the restarted fat fast…

Energy levels were a bit down, but I feel that was partially due to not having adapted to fat burning fully yet, and because I have a big gap between thermogenics(One when I get up around 7-8, then the other around 7-7:30 at night, just a bit before lifting) Some of the energy dulling is also due to work stress keeping me a bit down, while I am finding my job more physically taxing then ever(Not to the point of my muscles tiring, but the I find myself getting close to dehydration at times, between the thermogenics, ketones, and all the sweating I do cleaning up after Maine snowstorms)

Now, thats the negative, but what I really want to focus on is the positive.

On the plus side, some of my lifts have actually gone up, especially the first ones for each muscle group(I hit each muscle group about twice, two different exercises, HIT style). The later lifts have stagnated, or on occasion dropped slightly(5-10 pounds) but I attribute that more to hydration issues then muscle loss of any kind. The speed at which I pass water(I generally go right before lifting and try to down as much water as I can before my first lift), along with the sweat from the thermogenics and the high intensity workout leads to difficulty staying hydrated while maintaining the intensity.

I’ve come very close to falling off the wagon again, to the point that last night, had I not had the support of a very good friend to whom I dumped on about my work, and not had the thought in mind that achieving a leaner look would mean a better chance of successfully persuing a career as a personal trainer, I am sure I would have gobbled down… well, I began to type something but I think it probably best for all, myself included, that such things aren’t even named.

Also, as to my problem… it seems to have cleared itself up with greater attention to hydration, and as much relaxation as I can manage.

To my fellow fat fasters, best of luck everyone, I know that without the forum, my will is going to slip, so I’ll keep posting, and I hope you all do too.

hey Top Sirloin, I thought I’d do my meager best to answer your quetion. In regards to losing LBM, I think it’s getting too overblown, much like overtraining was. From what I’ve seen, it’s dependant upon your bodyfat%. The higher you are, the longer and more severe you can do this. If you look at some of the research on Protein Sparing modified fasts, they give obese patients 1.5g of protein per KG of desired weight. So it might come out to about 120grams of protein a day and that’s it, plus some veggies. They lose predominatly fat, with very little lose of LBM. I’ve seen one where they gave them I think it was 320Kcals and had them ride a bike at 80% max. They lost 11Kg of almost pure fat.

Of course that’s very obese patients, but the higher your bodyfat, the more severe you can be. If you’re lower in bodyfat, you can still do it, but you’d need to do refeeds more often. If you’re 12-15% bf, I’d suggest looking at Lyle McDonald’s UD2.0. Very good info and really well written. As far as your clients, same thing. Assess their bodyfat and ability to stay on something like this, and then go for it.

Hope that helps.

Hey TopSirloin,
I think the group here is using a variety of personalized Fat Fast variations. However, you can check out Chris Shugart’s Web Log and the thread called The Velocity Diet:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=543421

He is not planning on using any prohormones during his Fat Fast. I plan on using Alpha Male and HOT-ROX among other things. You can check my previous posts for more details. So far I have not lost as much weight as I thought I would, maybe because of the high protein helping the muscles retain water? I am only on my fifth day though. Energy is good and strength is holding.
Dan

Way to hang in there, Moon Knight. This may only get tougher the farther in we get, so just remember all of us here keeping an eye on you.
Stay strong,
Dan

I have been mixing a couple of scoops Low-Carb Grow! with another protein powder (because it is cheap)and using whole milk. Nice and creamy! I have also upped my fiber intake to around 50 grams a day. It definitely helps with feeling of fulness.
Stay strong,
Dan

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
I read both of Brock’s articles and I am VERY interested as I have clients that could use this as well as myself. I would appreciate some feedback though, because eating half of your BMR is very extreme for anyone, drugs or not.

How many of you on here can attest to having tried the Fat Fast with success and lost VERY LITTLE LBM??? It’s just so hard to believe he lost no muscle…

Also, Prohormones are pretty much illegal now. Can this be done with any legal supps? Not just in theory, but has anyone successfully completed this with Methoxy-7 or other pro-natural-T products? I can’t see this working without some serious anabolics…

I have spent years and thousands of dollars building a LBM of near 200 pounds and I just don’t want to piss it away in 30 days with an extreme diet. However, if it does work I am GREAT at sticking verbatim to a diet regimine without any cheating. Which is why I am really interested to know if this really, really works?!

Please - any thoughts???

TopSirloin[/quote]

Did you bother to click on my link? Click, read, understand.

STU

I’m using a combination of various Grow! shakes, plus Alpha Male & HOT-ROX. I also use a supp called ‘Redline’ when my overall energy levels just feel too crapped out for my HIIT sesions. I’m using 35-45 grams of fiber spread throughout my shakes, otherwise it’s like pouring cement down my throat. Although I began this back in early July '04, I’ve gone from a superchunky 237 lbs at 5’10" down to 182 lbs. I’ve also got the B4 & after pics to prove it and I have to say the support and information from T-mag have been crucial. A HUGE thank you to everyone at T-Mag and these forums for the inspiration & guidance. Stay strong guys…it works, and it’s worth it.

MicroSlash - Scaring the crap of of parents with hot daughters since 1985.

Microslash - how closely did you monitor your LBM - did you lose/gain any over the 8 months you have been on this? And, I don’t know how you are still coherent after only eating about 1/2 of you BMR for that long - did you really keep the cals that low? Any details would be appreciated!

TopSirloin

STU - actually I did look over your photos and comments. Nice work if that LBM increase is true.

I believe this Fat Fast is nothing more than the Atkins Diet, only counting calories and keeping better track of LBM, rather than just total weight lost. If I’m wrong, please tell me. But again, this is just an extreme ketogenic diet.

Having said that, this experiment is proving something that I find extremely interesting and potentially helpful: it appears that on an extreme ketogenic diet with healthy fats, and, ideally drug support, that one CAN afford to drastically cut cals. Where as your typical high-carb, low-fat dieter or even Zone dieter would probably lose muscle and fat simultaneously. Therefore, this relatively new spin on the ketogenic diets would make for some great anecdotal evidence. What nutritionists would call a dangerous practice in extreme calorie cutting is actually successful from a fat loss/LBM retention perspective… thus far.

On the contrary, what you guys can’t be sure of is how the body’s organs are handling this huge cut down. Since the body is burning nearly all the proteins and fats for energy, little will be spared for bodily processes… so it seems. The liver alone is said to need 50-70 grams daily to function and make its enzymes, bile, and 62 other functions. In the short term (the original 30 day’s Brock had proposed) I think this might be advantageous for most folks (hypoglycemics/diabetics maybe not). However, for extended periods of time, how can we be sure we aren’t harming our bodies??? Sorry to be Mr. Cynical, but I feel this is necessary in making sure this or any diet/training program is not harmful long-term. The whole point is to look good nekkid… not dead…

Ahh… what the hell - I’ll be joining you blokes next month!

Thanks,

TopSirloin

TopSirloin,

I was able to stay on target and sane by (pause for ad hoc abuse) using the 'ol Bill Phillips EAS cheat day concept…but I ate whole, clean foods every 4 days (no crap food). Also, my final nightime meal was usually a whole package of Perdue Short Cuts sliced & precut chicken breast pieces and a cup of raw or steamed broccoli to keep the plumbing clear. I didn’t keep track of my LBM, but I do know that my BF % went from 28.9 down to 13.7 as measured by my doctor. There was no great secret to this, as I tried to take in roughly 1900 calories per day (give or take 10% either way), plus continuing to do High Intensity Interval Training cardio for 45 minutes per day (3 days on, 1 day off). My lifts suffered (how could they not?), but the key was consistency…be in the gym no matter what…rain, shine, hurricanes, floods…etc. Check out the pics under the post “Thanks for the Inspiration” under the Physique & Performance Photos forum. I had to do something to arrest the slide…wearing size 38 pants ‘relaxed fit’ pants was getting humiliating. My progress was monitored by my doctor…my cholesterol & blood pressure have both improved significantly.

Well, day 5…

As I said yesterday was rocky, though getting in the gym, and the large steak later on after made for a nice ending.

However, surprisingly, today has been significantly improved. Admitedly work has been less stressful which helped, but, more then that, my energy levels feel a bit higher as well.

I have had to modify my training scheme slightly this week because of outside factors that would take too long to explain. It has come out as follows…

Monday - Lifts
Tuesday - 100 Rep plan
Wednesday - Break
Thursday - Lifts
Friday - 100 Rep plan
Saterday and Sunday - planned off

I think however, this has proven benefitial, especially with the energy fluxes early on in this diet. Next week hopefully I will be able to get into the gym on wednesday and thus lift thrice but I will not be dissappointed if next week comes out this way as well for some reason.

TopSirloin -
My feeling is that this might actually be a good kickstart for diabetics/hypoglecemics as I have heard that such persons have improved markedly, to the point of being cured, after following induction periods of other low-carb diets for a few months. However, this diet takes such a great deal of will power, as well as support by others that it might not be optimal for all.

Also, I am not taking any prohormones as well, though my route to diet success is going a bit different then some of the others and might not be a good case study.

Whoever said that this was just Atkins-
Atkins is by definition not simply carb cutting, but a process of cutting then re-integration. One might argue also that they do not put enough emphasis on calorie cutting, and allow their garbage quasi-food to be eaten.

This does have similarities, as one is cutting carbs but it is far more extreme, and has only one phase. Afterwords of course one is expected to slide into a low-moderate carb eating pattern but this is not implicit in the diet itself.

Atkins also does not take into account LBM, mood, or metabolism/energy levels.

Moon and Micro, thanks for the detailed replies.

As for the comparison to Atkins, I think I indicated that we as strength athletes keep much better track of our health than Joe avg and we eat higher quality foods. The point about the carb re-introduction is almost mute because eventually we will all come off this diet and have to re-introduce carbs to some level to stay sane. The atkins may be a more gradual increase in hopes Joe avg will be rational about it though. Thanks again fellas.

TopSirloin

Wow! I just measured last night (I was going to wait until Monday for a once weekly measurement, but got too curious!), and I have already lsot over an inch from the stomach and an inch from the waist! And I am not pulling the tape at all tight, for all you skeptics out there. I also have not done any cardio yet, just TBT, HOT-ROX, and Fat Fast.
Stay strong,
Dan

Good show Strongarm :slight_smile:

Very inspiring for the rest of us.

I wish I could give some approximation of my progress, but my fat kind of hangs differently. It is not so centralized to cause my waist to look expanded. Mine is spread as one long droopy slab of fat down from my upper abs to groin, though it is thinning and shrinking up. I’ve also noticed more definition in my arms already.

I’m really hoping to get the little bit of fat on my chest off. Its not even noticeable when standing, but when sitting down or bending over its a bit droopy there. I hope this isn’t gyno, though I wouldn’t be surprised, based on my horrible sugar, carb, and perservative laden diet until about 3 years ago.

Hey Moon Knight, this experience has been quite different for me. Usually when I diet, I see the arms and legs lean out a little faster, but this time it seems to be coming from the center of the body. I actually did the second set of measurements on arms and legs as well and there were no changes, which I assume means I am at least keeping the muscle. I accept the fact that this will be a long slow journey though. I anm wondering though if the fat coming off the center has anything to do with the bullet-proof vest I have to wear? They suck.
Stay strong,
Dan

Day 8

The diet is getting kind of boring, but I am not feeling the cravings or urges to deviate anymore. The big urge has been to just forget about food entirely, and I’ve found myself falling 30 minutes behind on occasion before catching myself and realizing I ought to get some more oil down my throat and wash it down with a shake.

All in all, could be better but DEFINATELY could be worse.

Training-wise, I continue to break through some personal records, but, I continue to struggle with maintaining hydration, and today, was almost sick after, from having chugged TOO much water all at one point in an attempt to compensate.

Fat continues to shrink from my body, and one of the areas I really wanted to lean down, my thighs, seem to be starting to lose their excess fat.

I’m decidely happy with the day, and am getting ready to enjoy my postworkout lamb.

I hope everyone else is getting along well too, be sure to post how you guys are doing and keep the thread alive :slight_smile:

Hey guys, I thought I would give an update on some of the changes I am making. I only lost 5 pounds over the week, instead of the usual 8-10. I took a look at my intakes and figured I am actually getting too much protein for what I am trying to accomplish. So I am cutting back about 15 grams protein per meal, which will put me at just over 1 gram per pound per day. I may do like Shugart and make all my shakes with water. I have been using milk, because it tastes much better. My energy remains good, and strength in the gym is great. I still don’t have much trouble with cravings because of all the fiber.
Stay with it guys; let’s hear some updates!
Stay strong,
Dan

Currently day 15 here. My weight has stayed relatively the same, and i haven’t taken measurements.

Started 209.5 and am 203 as of day 13. I have been using MAG-10 and it’s going well. I have actually gained some strength while on this, and lost some bf. Tomorrow i’ll have weight, and thursday i’ll have Bf% measurements. I may even bring out the Myotape. SO far so good though. Cravings = not enough to cry over.

Strongarm, just a thought, but, it occured to me that the 5 pound loss, compared to the 8-10 may be due to other things then the extra protein.

Thoughts being…

  1. If this is not your first time doing a low-carb diet, your body doesn’t get quite the same shock as one would the first time.

  2. The first week begins with water weight. You may not have as much water to lose as some.

  3. The sugar in the milk in the shakes may prevent your body from optimizing itself for using fat as fuel.

I personally would consider those first before cutting any more calories from the already meager diet, especially protein, since the body is using alot more protein when low on carbs.

As for myself, its Day 9, and not much spectacular to report. Good mood, energy, and strength, with no real cravings. I’m losing my interest/taste for food altogether really, but I’m watching the clock more closely now and making sure I don’t miss any meals.

Thanks for the thoughts, Moon Knight. Actually, the way I am cutting the calories is by eliminating the whole milk and using water. I will be using three scoops of protein (one Low-Carb Grow!, and two of whey protein), which will give me fifty four grams per shake. Yeah, I hadn’t thought about the repeat effect of multiple attempts on a low carb diet. It should be interesting to see how this week goes. I am also bumping up the fats a little bit by taking more salmon oil. I just calculated my predicted daily calorie intake and I am getting about 2000 to 2200 and that is without factoring in Surge on workout days. These totals are much lower than what I ate last week, since my shakes contained 70g of protein each. I am also eating whole eggs for breakfast, and may eliminate a couple of yolks.
Stay strong,
Dan