Is true that...too much fat 2-3 hour before a workout can inhibit glycolysis to some extent and therefore decrease power output?
I know Steve Coppola prefers a P+F meal before working out. PM him if you want. Hes also like 225 so he must be doing something right.
Eat, eat, eat, eat, lift, eat, eat, sleep. Dont try to make it harder than it is. KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Words to live by. All these new fangled theories are great but 99% of guys who are big got that way because of eating a shit load and lifting their asses off. Once you get big and strong you can worry about protein this, fat that.
Can we please lay ideas like "He's 225 so he must be doing something right" to rest? 90% of the people out there who are 225 would have been 210 if they never saw a weight in their lives. I'm not saying this to denigrate Steve Coppola, who really does know his stuff, but to point out that if there's one thing most of the big guys out there have in common, it's big parents, not special knowledge.
Excellent point, Chris.
I get so tired of people trying to argue that so and so does x and he's big, ripped, strong or whatever, so it must work for him.
Why don't you just test it out yourself. have a high fat meal before working out one day, and the next do high carb, the next hi protein. write it down. see which day you feel best. I find that fat a few hours before lifting is ok, but just before and during slows me down. i can do raw eggs with some sugar (juice) anytime before/during/after and it's great! you just gotta test it for yourself. everyone is different.
A P+F meal an hour or so before your workout can actually be better. I believe there were a few who wrote about this. Maybe Timbo can chime in. I will either have a P+F meal or P+C meal prior to working out. They both work fine for me.
Paul, do a search here on T-Mag for "substrate Marion," (without the quotes, of course) and read the "Coffee before Fasted-State Cardio?" thread.
Seems that the meal taken in before working out does not affect substrate utilization.
"Eat, eat, eat, eat, lift, eat, eat, sleep."
Goldbergs speakin my language now..
I have to vehemtly disagree with your 'P+F' is superior to 'P+C' pre-workout assertion. Granted, 'P+F' puts you in an anabolic state going into your workout, but guess what? 'P+C' sends you into things in a drastically higher one. Just think about how anabolic/anti-catabolic insulin is. Not only that, since the hormonal 'milieu' of lifting plateaus your blood-sugar-levels during your workout, you're getting a.)enhanced anabolism and b.) glycogen replenishment while you're lifting (i.e. you can go longer, harder). IMO 'P+C'--IF TIMED CORRECTLY-- trumps 'P+F'pre-workout hands down, irregardless of what diet you're following; it's almost a point of no contest...
A P+F meal pre-workout does decrease GH release, whatever that's worth.
Also, some of those fat calories will digest after the workout and won't be burned in the presence of high insulin (from P-W carbs). I think they only get shuttled into muscle cells with the carbs DURING intense exercise, not afterward.
I have to vehemently disagree and say that in the long run its not going to fucking matter. Before my workout today i had pepsi one and ephedrine. Sometimes the westside guys go eat breakfast at mcdonalds before they lift. They are some of the biggest, strongest guys in the world. This is a moot point.
With all due respect, Goldberg, the Westside guys are fat steroid users. (Not a slam, they admit to this openly.) What works for them may not work for those who don't want to be fat and don't use roids and actually care about their health and longevity.
I do understand the point you're making when you post stuff like this (yes, we overcomplicate things sometimes), but we're not all powerlifters who don't care about excess fat gain and we don't all have the genetics to eat like that without being disgusting piles of poop.
"I will either have a P+F meal or P+C meal prior to working out." uhhh no doy what other kind of meals are there? HI,like to have f+c meals prior to workouts and sleep.lmao
New Westside nutrition article:
"The Secret Anabolic Power of McDonalds Trans Fats"
No offense, but nobody wants to hear nutrition advice from Westside folks. We DO want to hear strength training advice. Keep it at that.
Dave Tate stated in his recent Eight Keys article that he knows very little about performance nutrition, yet he is at least being proactive about it and seeking help from those that he admits have greater knowledge. Something to think about.
A P+F meal about 2hrs pre-workout will allow the bulk of the nutrients to be cleared from the small intestine (of course this depends on the composition of the meal i.e. fiber content, casein vs. whey, etc). Once the workout begins, I can't think of many good reasons not to start sipping on a P+C drink, provided the proper ingredients. This includes goals of muscle gain, fat loss, or strength/power.
This will allow your glucose and insulin levels to be far more easily controlled and predictable by the time the workout rolls around.
The during workout hormonal cascade (i.e. epinephrine) will not be able to stabilize anything from a P+C meal 2hrs previously, especially if this meal causes a crash, and demotivates or reduces energy levels when beginning the workout.
Another benefit to the P+F pre-workout is the ability to take advantage of stimulants with this meal (or shortly after) without the interference with carbohydrate metabolism due to decreased insulin sensitivity.
Good question, Paul.
Gotta agree with the trend here. Not everyone wants to be big at all costs, especially if it involves gaining a lot of fat. Different priorities, that's all.
Also, just to supplement what Marc M. said, note that in an article about two years ago (the one where some guy went into the Westside gym and actually trained with those guys), Dave Tate made the unilateral assertion that "Nutrition is overrated." Now he says that it is, in fact, important, and that he doesn't know as much as he should about it.
Again, something to think about.
Even when i wasnt a fatass powerlifter, i would say stupid shit like this is not going to matter. I guess Chuck Vogelpohl, Amy Weisberger, JM Blakely, George Halbert, and Kenny Patterson are all fatasses. How many westside guys have yall actually seen? Not all westside guys are steroid users either. Ive never used steroids, steves never used steroids and its been working pretty well for us. do it one way for one way for six months and then do it a different way for six months. I bet one thousand dollars that you notice no difference at all.
This is my ultimate test for something. If you were to do it one way for one year and then switch for one year, would there be any difference? This point was made very well in an old protein article written by TC. He said you could put a group of people on whey, casein, milk, meat, or toe jam protein and you probably would see no difference between any of them. the big things are:do you get enough protein, do you get enough essential fatty acids, do you get enough of the vitamins and minerals that you need, do you lift your ass off intelligently, do you use post workout nutrition? those are major points that make a difference. little bitty things like we are discussing here arent going to impact your goals enough to even warrant worrying about them. Am i going to be able to get just as good of a workout by eating protein and carbs before i lift as if i had eaten a protein and fat meal. more than likely. it has nothing to do with not being concerned with being fat. its just common sense.
Simply because my name was brought up here, I feel I must chime in. As I stated in another thread a week or so ago, I PREFER a P+F meal about one to two hours before lifting but sometimes it ends up being P+C. On this note, I side with Goldberg in saying that you damn well better eat something before you lift, and forget the details.
The reason, however, I do PREFER a P+F meal pre-workout was covered quite well by the Irish-something-or-other-dip expert Marc M.. That, and I also have an easier time stomaching P+F pre-workout for some reason...less digestion problems it seems.
For the record, I am definitely the "biggest" dude in my family, and my parents are not genetic freaks. I've gotten to be 225-230 through hard work and discipline. Certain members of the forum (jaytruly) have witnessed this in person. Three years ago this month I was barely scratching 160-170lbs. Oh, and as Goldberg mentioned, I am not a fat steroid user, though I can't guarantee that will always be the case (the fat part or the steroid part).
Good post paul, and good point method.
The only problem i have is as you put it has to be a well time P+C meal and ofcourse made up with the right Carbs. dpending on what my diet is like I can be very carb sensitive and crash during a workout if i just have a P+C meal pre training.
The best for me i have found is P+F about 90min pre and when i get out of the car walking into the gym start sipping high GI carbs with whey (surge springs to mind). It works for me.
In saying that im off to Wendys for my pre training feed, go Goldberg nutrition! it much more fun