Falling Like Dominoes...Matt Lauer

We’ve entered the territory of hyperbole and hysteria the moment the theme that anything short of full acceptance and support of an accuser means you’re ambivalent or somehow pro-sexual assault(words fail me right now, I hope you get what I’m trying to say here) started to become common.

I’ve enjoyed reading these three articles on the Atlantic regarding this topic and the college campus-

Over-correction is an understatement. The worst part is that Democrats now cannot afford to do anything reasonable regarding the sexual assault on college campuses stuff simply because the Trump Admin removed the Title IX guidelines.

IIRC, CA is currently codifying it into state law without even bothering to see the ramifications of the law.

? Why are you disgusted with the male(I assume you’re male) gender based on that article?

The article states that both male and female students gave worse rankings to female instructors. Is it because the article also states " the men were much more prejudiced"?

What does that mean? Since the article states that the evaluation was averaged, did women give like ten slots below whereas men gave fifty slots below, and the math averaged out to 37 slots below?

I was drunk once at a house party and rested my head against the shoulder of a female acquaintance/sorta friend while we were sitting next to each other.

At that moment, did I sexually harass her?

This is an open question for everyone, btw.

Not just an American thing. I was in a trivia thing where a question was name 2 African countries and hardly anyone could answer it… I mean come on, South Africa is a free one, it’s basically name one African country.

Curious what you mean by this - I think you’re talking about me lol.

I pronounce Aunt as “awe-nt” as in “I’m in awe” … not “ant” … and it’s how I grew up hearing the word spoken. My sister, all my and my wife’s family and extended family (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins, aunts, uncles, etc - well more than 50 people) pronounce it that way. To me, it’s not pretentious - it’s literally how we were raised in the part of the country we’re from - it’s how you say it lol. For reference, Southern New England/Massachusetts/Rhode Island/Buzzards Bay.

Aside from Australia and Antarctica, I’m more than positive I can name at least 2 countries on any continent … Especially Africa - fucker’s hyoooge with a lot of different countries. I mean, shit Everyone’s heard of Egypt and, like you said, South Africa is a gimme.

This kid knows!

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Yes…unless you would have done the same to a male acquaintance at the time. To avoid sexual harassment, you should probably employ the following in all situations involving someone of the opposite sex…gender…gender identity…everybody.

The current swing of the pendulum in the direction of empowering women with regard to sexual-harassment-related issues has been wide enough to induce a tipping point on the subject (if you’ll forgive the mixed metaphors). This is a very, very good thing.

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Martha’s Vineyard? That would explain the pronunciation. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

lol … close. I can go down to a beach in my town and literally see MV from the shore.

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My comment wasn’t based just on that article, it was after news of another raft of firings. It seems harassment is pretty damn common (and not talking about the more “minor” allegations) and this article suggests the lower view of women as professionals is rampant.

As husband to a wife I’ve seen absolutely kill it as an executive, having proved her worth many times over, she still had to deal with this shit. It’s disheartening is all.

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Yep. I think of the Mid-Atlantic Ivy League thing. Now I’m going to picture you talking like Niles Crane, or William F. Buckley. BTW, I looked it up and 75% of Americans say “ant.” Apparently Mass is this pocket of pretentious. "… More specifically, New England (including Boston). If you look at the breakdown by state in the survey you cite, around 82% of the people pronounce “ant” and “aunt” the same in New York and New Jersey, while only 14% do in Massachusetts.

Sorry, Polo. You are very funny, and libertarian, and like to lift, and talk books and politics so… I think you can live with this one flaw to keep you humble.

Edited to add. @ harassment. I’m talking about people who think harris is in there.

This article gets into some of the history, and some of the gray areas.

It’s very long, but worth the read. I’ll put it here due to paywall.

It has been nearly two months since the first allegations surfaced of Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein’s sordid history of sexual harassment and payoffs to accusers. Since then, the accusations leveled at Mr. Weinstein and other powerful men have snowballed, prompted in part by aggressive journalistic investigations and by the #MeToo Twitter hashtag, which has encouraged disclosures of sexual misconduct.

The “Weinstein effect” has swept through the entertainment and media industries, leaving wrecked careers in its wake: actor Kevin Spacey, comedian Louis C.K., political journalist Mark Halperin, veteran TV talk-show host Charlie Rose and now “Today Show” co-host Matt Lauer and the author and radio personality Garrison Keillor.

What these high-profile cases mean for the rest of us is hard to say. Celebrity scandals involving gross abuse don’t offer obvious guidance for how ordinary men and women should interact at work. Will the disgrace of these prominent men translate into tougher policies or changed attitudes in offices across the U.S.? Will it advance gender equity and mutual respect—or promote polarization and paranoia?

One thing can be said with certainty: Any notion of simply banishing romantic or sexual interactions at work will fail. Too many of us find lovers, partners and spouses in the setting where we spend most of our waking hours. To move forward from this moment, we must acknowledge not just the awful impact of sexual harassment on women but the reality that the modern workplace is, among other things, a place where romantic overtures are not always unwelcome.

The Weinstein story, and those that followed, struck a chord not just for the sheer scope of the allegations. It was unsettling and infuriating to learn that so many sexual predators had apparently enjoyed impunity because of their status and power and that so many victims had apparently kept silent.

‘It’s no surprise that many of us find lovers and spouses where we spend most of our waking hours.’

Even commentators who have previously criticized how some institutions handle charges of sexual abuse have welcomed today’s cultural reckoning. Northwestern University professor Laura Kipnis, whose book “Unwanted Advances: Sexual Paranoia Comes to Campus” was published earlier this year, said, “What’s shocking about a lot of these revelations is the extent to which men in power have felt they have free access to the bodies of women who work for them, or aspire to. Did they think they were feudal lords and these women were their vassals?” She nonetheless sounds a note of caution: “We need to be careful about a rush to judgment and conflating different kinds of accusations.”

In some recent cases, however, we have seen just that. Though many of the men brought down by the scandals have been accused of egregious sexual impositions, from indecent exposure to rape, others have been implicated in less flagrant misconduct.

Leon Wieseltier, who had served as literary editor at the New Republic for many years, reportedly engaged in what one former colleague, writing in the Atlantic, called “low-level lechery” toward women at the magazine—from sexual innuendo and compliments to hugs and kisses, mostly on the cheek but occasionally on the lips. Michael Oreskes, National Public Radio’s senior vice president for news, resigned after two women accused him of one-time unwelcome advances two decades ago when he worked at the New York Times—in addition to two recent complaints about taking work-related conversations with female NPR staffers in an uncomfortably personal direction. Mr. Keillor asserts that his only offense was to place his hand on a female co-worker’s bare back while comforting her, not realizing that her shirt was open (though other details may yet emerge).

These and other cases raise many thorny questions. Should vastly different degrees of misconduct be punishable in the same way—by disgrace and career death? Should interaction between colleagues in social settings outside the office be subject to the same norms of propriety as workplace behavior? When, if ever, is sexualized or romantic interaction appropriate at work?

Even in this age of online dating, there is ample evidence that many Americans continue to find love (or sex) at work. In a survey of 500 single, divorced, and widowed adults released last February by the data company ReportLinker, 27% mentioned work as a way to meet partners, while only 20% said they used a dating app or website. Millennials were actually more likely than older singles (33%) to view the workplace as a dating pool. In another informal survey of 2,373 Americans ages 18 to 34, conducted by the online magazine Mic in 2015, nearly one in five said they had met their current spouse or partner through work.

Such on-the-job romances have become riskier, however, in our age of heightened sensitivity to harassment and discrimination. A recent tweet by the singer-songwriter Marian Call telling men “how happy women would be if strangers & co-workers never ‘flirted’ with us again” went viral with thousands of retweets and “likes” (though it also sparked some heated debate). Even workplace relationship stories with happy endings can look like they were one wrong turn away from sexual-harassment horror tales.

Four years ago, when the New York Times published a profile of Chirlane McCray, the wife of New York City mayor-elect Bill de Blasio, some were scandalized by the account of how the couple met in 1991 while working at city hall. Ms. McCray, who had long identified as a lesbian, “had zero interest in dating a man”—but Mr. de Blasio was undaunted and “flirted with her mercilessly … calling nonstop and trying to steal an unwelcome kiss.”

In a follow-up piece published in Slate to address concerns that the story of the de Blasio/McCray courtship sounded too much like sexual harassment, Ms. McCray was quoted as saying that he was “sweetly persistent, but…always respectful.” Yet such judgments can be very much in the eye of the beholder.

Ms. Kipnis stresses the distinction between enjoyable flirting and humiliating or oblivious behavior: “Flirtation is mutual, innuendo is one-way.” But while that distinction is often obvious, the lines can be blurred. Seeming mutuality can be the result of a less powerful person “playing along” to placate an abuser.

It is true as well, however, that a fully consensual dynamic can later be reinterpreted as abusive for a variety of reasons, from a soured romance to work troubles to a change in perspective because of “#MeToo”-style consciousness-raising. As far back as the 1980s, federal courts have ruled that a woman who willingly participates in and even initiates raunchy behavior at work can still successfully sue for sexual harassment over similar conduct if she did not welcome it in those specific instances.

The country’s previous “national teach-in” on sexual harassment took place after the 1991 Supreme Court confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas, where his former employee Anita Hill accused him of several instances of misconduct (Mr. Thomas denied the allegations). The new sensitivity to these issues had salutary results, including the resignation in 1997 of Sen. Bob Packwood, after reports that he had made unwanted advances to 19 former staffers and lobbyists. He initially denied the charges but stepped down after the exposure of his personal diaries, which corroborated some of the incidents.

Yet the 1990s also brought much-publicized stories of overreaction to mostly innocuous behavior: a creative writing instructor fined and suspended for using sexual metaphors in class; a county official fired for emailing a female employee a mildly ribald piece of internet humor, even though she had given her OK to receiving it; an insurance company manager demoted and transferred for sending sexually humorous greeting cards to a female office administrator, even though the cards had been mutually exchanged. Such episodes fostered the perception that the new rules on harassment had become a double standard favoring women, and they helped to create a backlash against efforts to combat the problem.

At the end of the decade, the scandals stemming from President Bill Clinton’s relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky changed the cultural tide. Some commentators, such as the Atlantic writer Caitlin Flanagan, have blamed the feminists who backed Mr. Clinton for stalling the momentum of the fight against harassment, but it is also true that, by then, much of the public was ready for a rebellion against “sexual correctness.”

The revelations that have emerged over the past two months are a potent reminder that workplace sexual harassment remains a real problem—and not just in the precincts of media and entertainment. In an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll of 900 American adults conducted in October, 48% of employed women said they had personally experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. Nearly 79% of women, and 63% of men, disagreed with the idea that harassment reports are overblown.

A more nuanced picture emerges from polls that distinguish among kinds of offenses. A 2016 U.S. Merit Systems Protection Board survey of over 42,000 federal employees suggests that more extreme violations are fairly rare. While 18% of women and 6% of men said that they had been sexually harassed in the previous year, only 1%—for both sexes—reported being pressured for sexual favors, with a similar figure for reports of sexual assault. The rest of the reported behavior consisted of unwelcome jokes or comments, suggestive looks or gestures and “invasions of personal space.” These numbers showed a sharp decline, however, from a similar survey of federal workers in 1994, when 44% of women and 19% of men reported some form of unwanted sexual attention in the past year.

The lesser forms of misconduct recorded by these surveys are not necessarily harmless. It is hard to know how many represent cases in which behavior was so offensive or persistent that it rose to toxic levels. That possibility is magnified when someone in a position of power is being inappropriate with a subordinate.

In a recent discussion at King’s College in London, the feminist scholar Martha Nussbaum offered a partial defense of Mr. Wieseltier, saying she had always perceived his conduct at the New Republic as “ridiculously theatrical [and] a little gross, but not threatening or malign.” Yet, even as Ms. Nussbaum expressed regret over his potentially permanent exile from the magazine world, she acknowledged that her experience “may well be different from that of vulnerable employees,” for whom the same behavior may have created a “hostile work environment.”
Is Office Romance Still Allowed?
Illustration: Hanna Barczyk

That high-level abuses of power can now be easily exposed to the public eye is an unquestioned gain for equality in the workplace. But whether the #MeToo moment will have a positive impact on the advancement of women, and the quality of everyone’s work lives, depends on what we do with it.

Liana Kerzner, a Canadian television host, writer and producer, has seen her share of workplace sexism over the course of her career, but she has mixed feelings about the current climate. “The huge uproar over every new headline is having negative effects on some survivors of abuse,” she told me. “Some feel like treating groping as equivalent to more serious, Weinstein-level assaults trivializes violent attacks.” Ms. Kerzner believes that “we need to be able to use judgment and separate men who are just awkward from men who use their power to intimidate.”

There is a real need for cultural change and for conversations on sexual respect, Ms. Kerzner says, but “making workplaces too uptight will backfire.” As she sees it, “When hours are long and there’s a lot of stress, the humor can get ‘inappropriate,’ but it’s just a coping mechanism. If you can’t joke around at work, your workplace doesn’t have the trust necessary for people to give the company their best.”

Instead of formal rules, Ms. Kerzner argues, it is much more important to have strong workplace communication and responsive management, so that employees bothered by a co-worker’s behavior can complain without fearing retaliation or overreaction. For their part, managers should try to notice and defuse tensions before someone complains.

Unfortunately, today’s workplace policies often encourage a rigid and punitive approach in such cases. If an employee complains to a supervisor of sexually inappropriate behavior, the supervisor usually cannot simply talk to the offender but has to take the matter to human resources—and the offender cannot try to resolve the issue by apologizing. Often, he or she is forbidden to have any contact with the complainant.

These protocols can exacerbate problems stemming from low-level misconduct or workplace romances gone awry—and we can do better. Relaxing such rules would make room for managers to deal with such issues in a more flexible, humane way. At the very least, it should be possible to give the parties to such disputes a chance to talk to each other.

The answer, in the end, is to ensure dignity and respect in the workplace for women and men, whether accusers or accused. Finding the right balance may not be easy, but it is the only way forward if we are to accept the human—and sometimes sexual or romantic—reality of our working lives.

Ms. Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine and an opinion columnist for Newsday.

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I really liked this statement in the article you posted @anon71262119.

Thanks!

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All’s well that ends well?

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Lmao. The only difference between sexual harassment and courtship is whether the attention is wanted.

Coincidentally wanted your opinion on this @anon71262119. The Christmas song ‘Baby it’s Cold Outside’, courtship or date rape? I ask because I remember a 3rd wave article about how any man that propositioned a woman for sex twice in one day was a rapist for pressuring the woman, so every man ever. I also think it’s funny: Here we have a dude asking for consent in a song written in 1944 lol.

I really can’t stay (but baby, it’s cold outside)
I’ve got to go away (but baby, it’s cold outside)
This evening has been (been hoping that you’d drop in)
So very nice (i’ll hold your hands, they’re just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (beautiful what’s your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I’d better scurry (beautiful please don’t hurry)
But maybe just a half a drink more (put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (baby, it’s bad out there)
Say what’s in this drink? (no cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (i’ll take your hat, your hair looks swell)
I ought to say, no, no, no sir (mind if I move in closer?)
At least I’m gonna say that I tried (what’s the sense in hurtin’ my pride?)
I really can’t stay (oh baby don’t hold out)
But baby, it’s cold outside
I simply must go (but baby, it’s cold outside)
The answer is no (but baby, it’s cold outside)
Your welcome has been(how lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (look out the window at this storm)
My sister will be suspicious (gosh your lips look delicious)
My brother will be there at the door (waves upon the tropical shore)
My maiden aunts mind is vicious (gosh your lips look delicious)
But maybe just a cigarette more (never such a blizzard before)
I’ve gotta get home(but baby, you’d freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat(it’s up to your knees out there)
You’ve really been grand (i thrill when you touch my hand)
But don’t you see? (how can you do this thing to me?)
There’s bound to be talk tomorrow (think of my lifelong sorrow)
At least there will be plenty implied (if you got pnuemonia and died)
I really can’t stay (get over that old out)
Baby, it’s cold
Baby, it’s cold outside

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When you say head, are you referring to a part of your penis?

If not, I’m very disturbed that we have reached this level of confusion over this issue.

I’m more than bemused that we believe that we have reached a state of sexual freedom but can’t work out if we can touch each other in a non-sexual way.

Or perhaps I am misreading things and we are now so sexualised that we can no longer discern sexual touch from non-sexual. No wonder we can’t let our children out of our sights.

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There was an old joke back in the '90s when OR Senator Bob Packwood stepped down because of sexual harassment: Did you hear Packwood lost the spelling bee? He thought “harass” was two words.

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That was very funny.

This breaks down the common American vs British pronunciations. In America, just saying the word sounds a little like harassment. haha!