Dorian used this approach on every exercise. In my article I recommend using it only on isolation or non-stressful exercises.
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Ahhh okay, thanks for answering
So I was just looking at switching to a 4-day split with âheavyâ (strength) days and âlightâ (hypertrophy) days. I understand that my heavy days, 6 sets of 3 for example, going to failure is not the priority. Then, on âlightâ day, I planned to start with 4 sets of 8 at approx. 65%, still on the main lifts i.e. squats. I would not normally plan to go to failure on âlightâ main lifts either. Instead, after the 4x8, I would switch to assistance/isolation exercises or machines where going to failure is more practical or safer. After reading this article, I wonder, on the hypertrophy day, is there any benefit to starting out with 4x8 on a âmainâ lift? Does this do anything, other than change the weights that I will go to failure with on the assistance/isolation exercises? Or should the âlightâ day go straight to the assistance/isolation?
Wouldnât this type of training be a good choice as supplemental work in programs like the RSS-program?
For example UB D1 a couple sets for delts triceps chest and UB D2 a couple sets for biceps/back?
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After completing my first hypertrophy day, I would say do ONLY the failure sets rather than bringing in the squats to start. Muscle failure is muscle failure, CT said himself he doesnât count or care how many reps it takes to get there, just as long as you get there.
Going to failure (or just beyond) is extremely tiring, and convincing myself to go to failure on a 3rd set on a particular exercise was hard enough, without trying to add compound movements to the mix. Going to ACTUAL failure, takes a lot more mental toughness than I was expecting as I considered I already took some of my sets to failure. Turns out I was usually a good 2-4reps short of actual muscle failure when I pushed myself beyond what I thought was possible. I havenât felt DOMS like this in awhile to be honest.
If your heart is set on doing squats, or if thatâs what youâre looking to improve on I canât see it hurting as long as you arenât taxing your system too much.
Anyways, long winded reply. CT obviously would have a better idea, but this would be my interpretation.
So Iâm thinking the isolation sets to failure first, then compound sets, but perfect form. Iâm struggling with the day split. Iâm struggling with where to use snatch grip dead and SGHP. For lower body work, maybe using single leg work for the failure work, then ramp on squats and to out with reasonable rest time doubles. Iâm working it out on paper now. What and how for you all?
Iâm trying this split out right now. Not quite through each of the workouts, and still going to tweak which isolation movements I want to use as my failure sets. But so far enjoying the implementation of this technique. Definitely getting some DOMS that I havenât felt in awhile, so Iâm hoping this will translate to some new slabs of mass!
For me, might be too much
Day 1. lateral raise, 3sets failure. vertical pull, three sets failure
Ramp high incline shoulder press 2 reps per, (about 5 sets, then two addâl at perceived top)
2 sets dumbbell curl and 2 sets tri ext
4 sets of three ramping up squat, then 2 addâl sets of 3 at highest load.
day off
Day 3 rear leg elevated split squats to failure (perceived failure) x3, medium stride length
leg curl to failure.
SG deadlift from ground
SGHP ramp sets of 2 with 3 addâl at perceived top (form and speed primary)
superset hip thrust and kettlebell goblet grip good morning 3 sets
off
Day 5 cable crossover OR squeeze press to failure x3
horizontal row to failure x 3
Bench from pins ramp sets of 2 then 2 addâl at perceived top.
curl and ext 2 sets failure
Ramping up sets of 2 trap bar deadlift with 2 addâl at perceived top.
As a desk jockey, and with poor strength in lower body exercises, I am using a cautious approach. relearning form and the mind muscle connection, not just humping up.
our gym has an upper body erogmeter that I will use as warm up on days 1 and 5, day 3 a bike. 5 minutes or so. If I get my work capacity up, trap bar farmer walk at end each day.
I think overall that program will work just fine, very similar to what Iâm doing now just condensed into a 3 day split. I would say give it a whirl and see how long the workouts take and listen to your muscles to tell if youâre getting enough/too much stimulation for each muscle.
Day 1 was about 55 minutes from floor to door. The DOMS today is a beast. I know it really is not an indication but I kinda like it.
re: layers CT, i meant doing 2-3 assistance or isolation movements âfailureâ style after. So:
Day 1: Bench Press layers, Skull crusher (2-3 sets, to failure/rest pause), Side laterals (shoudler trifecta, to failure)
Day 2: Trap bar dead layers, lunges + reverse split squat to failure
Day 3: Incline tilt off pins layers, dips
Day 4: Snatch grip high pull, rows & curls
Day 5: Rest
Day 6: Repeat
I recall in original layers thread you added some sets of âpracticeâ work either before or after the main layers. Really cool as well.
Workouts are more fun for me when I can do everything in one workout. Vs. going to gym just to two isolation exercises to failure. Thats why layer is so appealingâŠ
Dude seriously, you gotta be trolling⊠Why do you keep asking for permission? You keep hearing an answer that you donât like, and you proceed to keep asking until you hear an answer you want. The answer is not going to change. To the exact question youâre asking now he stated explicitly no, multiple times. Multiple times. I would emphatically advise the same.
Multiple timesâŠ
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I think the layout youâre proposing will be doable only in the case if you omit the last two layers from the layer system (But Iâm not sure if itâs layer system anymore in that case). Inducing more fatigue in the already demanding layers is a very bad idea imo.
[quote=âSigil, post:51, topic:213612â]
I recall in original layers thread you added some sets of âpracticeâ work either before or after the main layers. Really cool as well. [/quote]
Which worked in the short term and led to accumulated fatigue which decreased the results.
Everything you can think of Iâve probably tried. And if I am not recommending it must be for a reason.
Workout are more fun for me when I max out on everything on that day or do 2:30 hours of snatch and clean & jerk. But if I do that I crash and burn and regress. Yes you should enjoy your workouts but sometimes being a stimulus addict will limit if not halt your gains.
And Iâm not going to the gym to do 2 exercises to failure. I can have up to 6 total exercises on the isolation days.
100% correct. Worst case scenario if you donât like my answers go ask another coach⊠ask your questions to 100 coaches until one agrees that what you want to do is the only way to train.
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CT, broadly what kind of rest periods are you using for the isolation work to failure?
Iâm my whole existence I donât think I ever measured any of the rest period I or any of my clients used. I find that nothing gets you out of the zone and kills your workouts quite like counting the rest you take between sets.
You should recover until you feel about 80-90% recovered. But since with failure work all that matters is hitting failure, not the weight you use or the number of reps you do, it doesnât really matter if you cut the rest period short a bit.
When I do failure work the rest probably falls around 1 minutes but I never measure it.
Thanks ct!
Just wondering what kind of isolation work do you do for the leg day besides leg extension/curl.
Do you incorporate bridges? pull throughs?
Also do feel variety plays a more important role when it comes to isolation work? Meaning changing exercises from every so few weeks since it is less technical mastery.
Maybe I missed it, but were there any recommendations on frequency for doing the 3 sets to failure? One rest day, two rest days?
[quote=âAbsoluteBoxer, post:58, topic:213612â]
Just wondering what kind of isolation work do you do for the leg day besides leg extension/curl.Do you incorporate bridges? pull throughs?[/quote]
Who says I have a leg day? I donât necessarily think of the body in terms of body parts, especially not since I have performance days in which the whole body gets involved to some extent (on some days I focus on the Olympic lifts on others on strength movements).
That having been said you can use the failure model with any split you want.
do squats twice a week I donât need anything more than leg extensions and leg curls for my failure work.
But you could use various types of leg curls (standing, seated, lying), pull throughts, glute-ham raise (I donât really like barbell hip thrusts). For quads you can also do single-leg extensions and leg press for example (not an isolation exercise, but not a neurologically stressful movements either) from various angles.
Personally since Iâm doing both Olympic lifts twice a week and do squats twice a week I donât feel the need to do any more failure work for my legs.
Can you change the exercises more often? Yes. Does it play an important role? Not really. If you go to full muscle failure, and even further with rest/pause sets you will fully stimulate a muscle. There isnât really any need to change exercises to hit different fibers.
The only two reasons I see variation as helpful is 1) to prevent boredom and keep motivation high 2) if you stop feeling an exercise change it with one in which you feel the muscle working better.
Personally I have a few exercises per body part that feels better FOR ME. Meaning that in these exercises I feel a better contraction. As long as I feel that superior contraction I see no need to change the exercise. Iâve been using the same exercises for my failure work for the past 2 months.
Heck, Dorian Yates used the same exercises for years.
That having been said, with failure work the premise is that if you go to through contractile failure (and further with the rest/pauses) you will fully stimulate the muscle bein trained. So while variation is not needed, it wont hurt either.