T Nation

F#%k this Shit. I'm Outt'a Here!

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Yeah well, to design a system without inbuilt breaking points is just stupid. [/quote]

You mean like a provision for constitutional amendment and a constitutional convention?

Look, we’ve been down this road, and you don’t have any ammunition left. Give it up.[/quote]

You dont get it do you?

The representatives of the states where promised that they could bail out at any time.

You think they would have consented to a treaty that made them the federal governments bitch?

This is the vibe that you get from their writings?

Well, go on then and have it as bloody as it apparently has to get.

Its on people like you, you know?

[/quote]

The only thing worth a shit that came out of the Articles of Confederation (Which were meant to be a means of governance during the wartime period)was the North West Ordinance. E pluribus unum. America is greater than the sum of its parts (the states.) The interests of the Union as a whole come first in a true American’s heart.

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Yeah well, to design a system without inbuilt breaking points is just stupid. [/quote]

You mean like a provision for constitutional amendment and a constitutional convention?

Look, we’ve been down this road, and you don’t have any ammunition left. Give it up.[/quote]

You dont get it do you?

The representatives of the states where promised that they could bail out at any time.

You think they would have consented to a treaty that made them the federal governments bitch?

This is the vibe that you get from their writings?

Well, go on then and have it as bloody as it apparently has to get.

Its on people like you, you know?

[/quote]

The only thing worth a shit that came out of the Articles of Confederation (Which were meant to be a means of governance during the wartime period)was the North West Ordinance. E pluribus unum. America is greater than the sum of its parts (the states.) The interests of the Union as a whole come first in a true American’s heart.[/quote]

Ah, shaming language.

Men with guns are usually not detered by that, woman.

[quote]H factor wrote:
Blame it on the parties Trib. They intentionally work to divide us. Both sides are awful. A divided populace works great for political parties. As one swings into power the other knows they will swing back eventually just as long as the country stays divided. In 04 we started to strongly dislike Republicans, then we kicked them all out in 08. In 12 we have started to strongly dislike Democrats and if the next 4 years are crap we will put the team we despised in 08 right back in. Americans are funny like that.

Both sides represent big government, just different flavors of big government. We can’t argue the issues because everything has become all R’s feel this or all D’s feel that. Confirmation bias on the internet ships thoughts to those on the extremes and has them fan out. It’s a scary situation and getting worse.

Though I’m limited government I’m no anarchist. [/quote]Though I appreciate your time in responding and I mean no offense, what I’m talking about is not about political parties.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Yeah well, to design a system without inbuilt breaking points is just stupid. [/quote]

You mean like a provision for constitutional amendment and a constitutional convention?

Look, we’ve been down this road, and you don’t have any ammunition left. Give it up.[/quote]

You dont get it do you?

The representatives of the states where promised that they could bail out at any time.


[/quote]

Where? When? By whom? By someone in authority to make such a promise?
Madison, in his notes on the Constitutional Convention, nowhere mentions a right to secession, or even a discussion of it.

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!! YEEHAH!!!

So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.

I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!! YEEHAH!!!

So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.[/quote]I volunteer as long as I get to preach the gospel to ya all day and sing praise and worship while I do the dishes. Oh yeah. Ya have to lemme lead our bible studies too.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.[/quote]

Pride in roots.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.[/quote]

Having grown up in the South, that observation is absolutely spot on. The Civil War is taught in high school down here as a struggle for “State’s rights”. Luckily, the University system does its best to correct this fallacy.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!! YEEHAH!!!

So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.[/quote]I volunteer as long as I get to preach the gospel to ya all day and sing praise and worship while I do the dishes. Oh yeah. Ya have to lemme lead our bible studies too.
[/quote]

Sing and song too!? Where do I sign on to one of these petitions?

Do you prefer Alpo or Fancy Feast?

‘Fletch 1986’ Typed this Fantasy wish while listening to “Dueling Banjos”: “So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.”

Well Dadgummit that’s why y’all lost in the first place, too lazy and got outta shape havin’ everyone else do the work for ya.

[quote]Karado wrote:

[quote]Fletch 1986 Typed this Fantasy wish while listening to “Dueling Banjos”:
So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.[/quote]

[/quote]

How on the gosh well dern’d earth did you know that? Union spy I reckon.

Well I AM In Illinois, what do you think?..heh.

[quote]Karado wrote:
‘Fletch 1986’ Typed this Fantasy wish while listening to “Dueling Banjos”: “So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.”

Well Dadgummit that’s why y’all lost in the first place, too lazy and got outta shape havin’ everyone else do the work for ya.
[/quote]

I am starting to think that Karado is really Pitbull with a new alias. Anyone with me on this?

(Chirping Crickets)…let me relieve you of the suspense Jeaton, No.
Who the Fuck is “Pitbull” anyway? 'Sounds like my ‘Pedigree’ of person, If she’s young and Female
send that little Doggie my way will ya? We’ll do it ‘Human Style’.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve always found it amusing to observe that people who fly the Confederate flag above their porches are very often the hyper-patriotic types also. How someone can on the one hand reminisce with fondness about a rebel force that tried to destroy the country by splitting it in two and on the other hand claim to wear the garb of a patriot is entirely beyond me.[/quote]

Pride in roots.
[/quote]

I’d call it doublethink or, more simply, stupidity.

[quote]orion wrote:

You dont get it do you?

The representatives of the states where promised that they could bail out at any time. [/quote]

They were? Show me. I look forward to it.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
‘Fletch 1986’ Typed this Fantasy wish while listening to “Dueling Banjos”: “So if we win this time, do I get to own a slave? I sure hate doing the dishes and making my bed.”

Well Dadgummit that’s why y’all lost in the first place, too lazy and got outta shape havin’ everyone else do the work for ya.
[/quote]

I am starting to think that Karado is really Pitbull with a new alias. Anyone with me on this?
[/quote]

I thought that of Suffandy, and still do.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
This is dumb on the part of the Texas citizens, and dumb for anyone else who think a state can secede.

This topic gets tackled every several of months here, and we always wind up in the exact same place - the United States didn’t secede from England (we revolted, not seceded), there is no justification for secession, there is certainly no justification for seceding based on being a loser in a democratic election, and secession advocates flunked both history and civics.[/quote]

TB, legitimate question and honest curiosity. This answer has stuck in the back of my head for a few days. From what little information I have been able to find, revolution does indeed appear to be one of many means to secession. Why do you say otherwise?

Also, what would you consider as justification for secession of a state or states?

Lastly, I do not believe that having lost in a democratic election is the primary reason for such talk. I think that it is directly related to the slow but incessant creep of federal powers over those that are clearly designated to the states.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

TB, legitimate question and honest curiosity. This answer has stuck in the back of my head for a few days. From what little information I have been able to find, revolution does indeed appear to be one of many means to secession. Why do you say otherwise?[/quote]

Revolution and secession are not the same thing. Secession is not a subset of revolution. Revolution is a throwing off of a government because certain rights have been violated - truly, a revolt. Secession is a lawful withdrawal.

The American Revolution was exactly that - a revolution, not a secession.

In our democratic republic? Nothing. If you don’t like something, the means of redress is through republican government, not by walking away, or threatening to walk away if you don’t get your way.

But first and foremost, there has to be a mechanism to secede. Other than calling a constitutional convention, there is no mechanism or “right” to secede. So, there is no justfication for secession, period. We never forfeit the right of revolution, however.

Well, if that is a problem, though (and it is), then the states have redress - Congress. That is the solution. If states don’t like the creep of the federal government, then they send Senators and Representatives to change the laws to fix the problem. States get their say.

And this is why secession is inconsistent with republican government - in a republican government, everyone gets their say, but no one is guaranteed to get their way, and that’s the system. Large factions of people and states (and states’ interests, like regional interests, for example) are going to be losers in this kind of government - and that is expected. That’s why we have elections every so often - to give everyone a say again, and the losers get a chance to carry the day with their arguments and become winners.

Secession is a lazy end around the hard work of representative government - if people are upset at federal creep, the solution is at the ballot box…but there is a chance that other people disagree in larger number.