T Nation

F/C Combo Oddities

Ice cream: pretty much a fat/carb combo. pretty much gets you fat too because of its combination (carb raises insulin, fat gets shuttled in).

Whey+fat: ‘slows down’ digestion of whey because of the fat.
Since whey itself raises insulin, what exactly is the fat going to do?

I would say ice cream doesn’t make you fat- excess calories make you fat.

Ice cream doesn’t make you fat because it is a fat/carb combo, it makes you fat because there are over 1000 calories in one pint.

^ agree with the above posters.

Also, just on a side note. 50grams whey does not cause the same amount of insulin as 50grams of CHO.

woops guess i should have rephrased.

but nonetheless, many make protein shakes for during the day. you can do whey+fast sugar or you can do a mix of stuff such as whey, a carb source such as oats or sugars or fruits or whatnot, and some many add in oil to slow it down. so what is actually going on, fat being shuttled in faster or fat slowing down overall digestion?

[quote]kickureface wrote:
woops guess i should have rephrased.

but nonetheless, many make protein shakes for during the day. you can do whey+fast sugar or you can do a mix of stuff such as whey, a carb source such as oats or sugars or fruits or whatnot, and some many add in oil to slow it down. so what is actually going on, fat being shuttled in faster or fat slowing down overall digestion?[/quote]

I’m not really understanding your question. Fat will slow down overall digestion. Decreasing the absorbtion time of the nutrients, inturn creating a lesser need for insulin. Also, I don’t know anyone that adds whey + sugar + fats.

[quote]elusive wrote:
kickureface wrote:
woops guess i should have rephrased.

but nonetheless, many make protein shakes for during the day. you can do whey+fast sugar or you can do a mix of stuff such as whey, a carb source such as oats or sugars or fruits or whatnot, and some many add in oil to slow it down. so what is actually going on, fat being shuttled in faster or fat slowing down overall digestion?

I’m not really understanding your question. Fat will slow down overall digestion. Decreasing the absorbtion time of the nutrients, inturn creating a lesser need for insulin. Also, I don’t know anyone that adds whey + sugar + fats. [/quote]

ok let’s start with that. fat slows down absorption.
but several renowned also say that fat + carbs just creates an environment with the fats being shuttled in faster. hence, the confusion.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
elusive wrote:
kickureface wrote:
woops guess i should have rephrased.

but nonetheless, many make protein shakes for during the day. you can do whey+fast sugar or you can do a mix of stuff such as whey, a carb source such as oats or sugars or fruits or whatnot, and some many add in oil to slow it down. so what is actually going on, fat being shuttled in faster or fat slowing down overall digestion?

I’m not really understanding your question. Fat will slow down overall digestion. Decreasing the absorbtion time of the nutrients, inturn creating a lesser need for insulin. Also, I don’t know anyone that adds whey + sugar + fats.

ok let’s start with that. fat slows down absorption.
but several renowned also say that fat + carbs just creates an environment with the fats being shuttled in faster. hence, the confusion.

[/quote]

I think Berardi has started this whole dogma about pairing C + F. Even he himself is trying to “move away” from it. I think it was more of a way to enforce better food choices and allow for easier meal selections than anything else.

Moderation is key here. 40 grams of carbs (about a serving of rice) and 14-15 grams of fats (Tablespoon of Olive Oil or serving of Almonds) won’t encourage (unless this pushes you OVER your calorie balance) fat gain. Also, of course protein should be in the above meal.

never really read about where he started moving away from it, any links?

would make some more sense.
however those over @ DC i believe follow the rule too :stuck_out_tongue:

Can’t find the intial place I heard him say he was “moving away” from that (I’m pretty sure those were his exact words), but this will do for now. It may have been on FitCast. I can’t remember.

http://www.ifitport.com/johnberardi.php

CT has mentioned this also, in his locker room.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
never really read about where he started moving away from it, any links?

[/quote]

Well one of the ten PN rules is that excluding PWO carbs makes up no more than 25% of a meal’s calories.

I think Doughnuts are my personal favorite P+C combo. I can’t wait to sit down and just house a dozen Krispy Kremes in a few weeks -lol

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I think Doughnuts are my personal favorite P+C combo. I can’t wait to sit down and just house a dozen Krispy Kremes in a few weeks -lol

S
[/quote]

You deserve them. lol.

Yeah…read Troponin’s ebook “Supd’s Fat Loss Diaries” and you’ll see just how much C+F can be put down in a couple of days post-BB show.

Don’t the troponin guys support the whole separating fats and carbs idea due to the idea that when you are eating a lot of carbs and insulin is high you want to keep fats low to avoid them being stored?

It makes sense to me but I know guys like JC say it doesn’t matter at all.

[quote]ajweins wrote:
Don’t the troponin guys support the whole separating fats and carbs idea due to the idea that when you are eating a lot of carbs and insulin is high you want to keep fats low to avoid them being stored?

It makes sense to me but I know guys like JC say it doesn’t matter at all.[/quote]

See the thing I don’t understand is just because 9 calories is defined as a gram of “fat”, why is that the macro that the body chooses to store as body fat. It just makes no sense to me.

I mean essentially calories are calories, I don’t see how just because you eat carbs and fat together the fat is shuttled to your love handles for storage whereas the other non fat cals are used in other ways.

Hope my post makes some sense.

Yeah, they also only advocate “healthy fats” when you are on a low carb day…which are mostly natural fats from nuts, oils, and lean meats.

They don’t explicitly advise separating C/F from protein like JB but when you’re on a high carb day they say “fats as low as possible” which means ~5g per meal.

I’m sure a shake with oats, natty PB, and whey is totally fine on a moderate or high day (if you keep it in the morning).

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
ajweins wrote:
Don’t the troponin guys support the whole separating fats and carbs idea due to the idea that when you are eating a lot of carbs and insulin is high you want to keep fats low to avoid them being stored?

It makes sense to me but I know guys like JC say it doesn’t matter at all.

See the thing I don’t understand is just because 9 calories is defined as a gram of “fat”, why is that the macro that the body chooses to store as body fat. It just makes no sense to me.

I mean essentially calories are calories, I don’t see how just because you eat carbs and fat together the fat is shuttled to your love handles for storage whereas the other non fat cals are used in other ways.

Hope my post makes some sense.[/quote]

I think the general thought that the troponin guys have is that if you eat a lot of carbohydrates, your body will secrete a lot of insulin, which as well all know is a storage hormone. So if you have high levels of a storage hormone and then throw on a bunch of fat, insulin will be naturally inclined to store it in your fat cells. Whereas if you ate protein with high carbohydrates, your body would first have to convert the excess calories from protein into glucose and then convert the glucose into triglycerides, and then be stored as fat. So it appears that it is more difficult for protein to get stored as fat when insulin is high than fats just because fats do not need to be converted into anything to get stored. Anyone can feel free to correct me, but this is how I see it and I think is the general rationale of the troponin guys for having fat as low as possible on very high carb days.

[quote]ajweins wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
ajweins wrote:
Don’t the troponin guys support the whole separating fats and carbs idea due to the idea that when you are eating a lot of carbs and insulin is high you want to keep fats low to avoid them being stored?

It makes sense to me but I know guys like JC say it doesn’t matter at all.

See the thing I don’t understand is just because 9 calories is defined as a gram of “fat”, why is that the macro that the body chooses to store as body fat. It just makes no sense to me.

I mean essentially calories are calories, I don’t see how just because you eat carbs and fat together the fat is shuttled to your love handles for storage whereas the other non fat cals are used in other ways.

Hope my post makes some sense.

I think the general thought that the troponin guys have is that if you eat a lot of carbohydrates, your body will secrete a lot of insulin, which as well all know is a storage hormone. So if you have high levels of a storage hormone and then throw on a bunch of fat, insulin will be naturally inclined to store it in your fat cells. Whereas if you ate protein with high carbohydrates, your body would first have to convert the excess calories from protein into glucose and then convert the glucose into triglycerides, and then be stored as fat. So it appears that it is more difficult for protein to get stored as fat when insulin is high than fats just because fats do not need to be converted into anything to get stored. Anyone can feel free to correct me, but this is how I see it and I think is the general rationale of the troponin guys for having fat as low as possible on very high carb days.
[/quote]

hmmm that’s really interesting if that’s correct.

So fats do not have to be converted into anything to actually be stored as fat?

Without the presence of an insulin spike, say if you eat a P+F meal, where does the fat then go?