T Nation

Extreme (Crazy?) Plan


Ok first off I do not want to offend any decent hard working clean gym users.

I'm not condoning or recommending the use of this plan to anyone, this is just a purely hypothetical theory that I have I would like to hear any opinions you may have about it.

My theory is this:

This is for someone with a high BF% and poor muscle composition, basically someoene with fat belly and no muscles up top, who would like to lose the fat and gain muscle up top AT THE SAME TIME.

obviously you would have to work out hard and proper.

I have a theory on diet, to achieve losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time, what if you...

Ate a very low carb and very low sat/trans fat diet, but ate a lot of clean protein taking in the right amounts at the right time.

But because its a very low carb diet, you use a stimulant to energise your workout instead, say Epherdrine/caffine, Amphetamine or even as extreme as cocaine depending on how far you wanted to take it.

As far as I am aware if your body is getting no carbs it will turn your protien intake into energy thus negating your gains, but I also understand that on a very low carb diet your body will start to burn its own fat reserves as energy, but which one of these will it do first?

In theory although not healthy, I can see this plan working as the low carb diet and workouts will help you lose fat.

And the protein intake and workouts should help gain muscle mass.

Any thoughts?


If they're burning so much protein from these hyped up workouts, where do they get the protein to build muscle? --ok so they eat a crap load of protein, how do we know it's not too much to keep at the same amount of fat?


Sounds good in theory and might actually work for a couple days, but soon your body will just revert to using fat and protein for fuel immediately and your gains will stop. The stimulants are not a replacement for carbs. You need carbs to grow. Simple as that.


This is one of my questions will the body burn the protien intake as fuel, or burn exsiting BF

--ok so they eat a crap load of protein, how do we know it's not too much to keep at the same amount of fat?

The Protien intake would have to be kept reasonable, the exact amounts im not sure of and not to bothered about working out just now, as the main theory I am interested in is would usinf the stimulant work for energy instead of carbs. Anyway good clean protien intake should not lead to any serious fat gains


I have basically been doing that for about 4 days, and I feel like shite. I woke up this morning and my mouth felt and tasted like someone had done something depraved in it. It was also a mission to get out of bed and I felt like I hadn't slept - so I took two Spike and felt great :wink: I've also been eating shit loads of fruit and veg.

I plan to eat carbs for 2 days a week, pasta, brown bread etc then go back to eating v low carbs for five days. Only tomorrow to get through till carb day - I can't wait.


Almost impossible to gian muscle and lose bf at the same time naturally. Just doing one or the other is hard enough for most people.

If you were blessed with good genetics and followed a perfect nutritional plan and gym routine then I'm sure it could be done to an extent, but not much.

Sadly, the only way for most normal people to do this is to use help.



Do you need carbs to grow? Or do you just need carbs to fuel the workout?


Directly or indirectly you need them to grow. You can't make and sustain LBM gains on a consistent low carb diet.


Also the added affect of feeling crap is hard on your motivation. I may start feeling better soon (i hope) otherwise I'm going back to my normal carb intake.


last time i checked, protein and fat are necessary for human metabolism, carbs are not. humans can go their entire life without a single carb and not die, but if they don't get fats or proteins, they die.

in addition, it is easier to gain muscle by consuming carbs (and protein and fat), but not necessary.


Yes, carbs do make it a lot easier, but I think to make serious changes to your body comp. you gotta put in a LOT of time in the gym. The whole G-flux thing really is the key IMO.

For example, the amount of hours my cousin put in - he worked out 2-3 times a day for 6 days a week - were what counted. He didn't know much about diet - I told him to just eat a lot and he gymmed his heart out.

Many people know absolutely nothing about proper nutrition and still manage to get better results than many people who do.


If by help, you mean supplements such as those by Biotest as opposed to steroids, sure. Or no supplements at all for beginners or need beginners. This generalization only applies to seasoned lifters with some solid muscle. I've known many who lost fat and gained muscle at the same time and did myself as a beginner for some time. Off of nothing but a good diet and solid training.


Good post!

The body doesn't need carbs like it does fat. There are no essential carbs, but there are essential fatty acids.


New lifters can do almost anything at the beginning of their training. So, I guess we need to decide if we are talking about people who have lifted correctly for under or over 1 year.



I have only now come to the realisation that my post could have been a lot shorter and simply read:

Can you replace carbs with stimulants during bulking?


If you like but you'll feel like shit!!

Try having a reasonable amount of carbs in your breakfast to give you energy for the day. Your body deals with carbs much better in the morning, they'll get used for energy not stored as fat.


OK thanks, but what about the current fat stores in the body? I understand that lots of hard work and exersize will eventually strip this away, but I am theorising an EXTREME plan, could taking in NO carbs, and still working out hard, burn a lot moreof that fat a lot quicker?

I appreciate that this paln would probably make you fell like shit and possibly ill, but if done over a short period of time, say only 1-2 weeks, I beleive the amount of fat you could lose whilst gaining muscle????

would be worth it?



I actually did manage to lose fat and gain muscle like this over a ten week period. Was supposed to be a cutting period, but I never lost a single net pound - instead, I lost 5 lbs of fat and gained 5 lbs of muscle.

Basically, "the problem" was that I hadn't reduced my calories enough to lose net weight. If I'd done so, I should have lost at least 10 lbs of fat during those 10 weeks.

My diet was low carb, in that I stopped eating anything that was a grain, but I ate lots of mixed nuts - up to three pounds a week. My workouts included lots of treadmill, sometimes twice a day . It was hard to get motivated to lift weights, unless I had a shake pre-workout with sugars.

Overall, I'd say my botched cutting/transforming cycle wasn't worth all the effort. I'd have been better off by restricting calories more (nixing the nuts) and just losing weight. Or sticking to my bulking routine, where I've little trouble gaining a pound or three of muscle per a week.


What you are proposing is basically the v diet. You can maintain, but you won't grow. It's hard enough to put on muscle with a butt load of food. Stimulants won't do jack shit to help you grow. Go back and read what people have posted, your listening but your not hearing........



Maybee, but stimulants have no caloric value. You would have to compensate by replacing the carbs with another source of calories, and compensate for the dehydration and loss of vitamins and minerals caused by the stimulants.