T Nation

Extend Cycle with HCG and Planning PCT


#1

I'm about to finish up week 10 of a Test-E 500mg/wk Adex 0.5mg/EOD and I'm getting a little nervous about PCT.

I'm feeling great on cycle. I'm very confident, talkative, high libido etc. I'm also starting to interview for a new job and am worried that PCT might mess with my head. I was planning on introducing HCG these last 2 weeks then doing a Nolva 40/40/20/20, Clomid 50/50/50/50.

There seems to be no consensus on what to run for HCG. So my first question is what do people recommend for introducing HCG these last couple (or more) weeks?

Second, do you think I should extend my cycle out to say 14 weeks to get through interviews before PCT? Will running HCG longer also help?

Third, do you think that Nolva Clomid PCT plan looks okay?

Obviously because this is my first cycle I'm not sure how my body will react to PCT.


#2

well, a couple things....

-you don't need Nolva and Clomid both for PCT.... there is research out there that shows that Clomid causes desensitization to LH as well, meaning that Nolva would be the better choice.

-every week on cycle is another week that you need to recover from later.... a lot of folks think that PCT is automatic with a SERM, but the fact of the matter is, it takes time to recover. if you take 10x the amount of androgens than what you produce for an extended time, you need to expect that recovery won't be immediate.

-with that being said, i gather that this job is a big deal, and with the way the world economy is now, it would be pretty small-minded of me to discount how important this might be in your life.

-it's not uncommon to see guys have serious issues recovering from 14 week cycles, but 10 weeks are not nearly as bad. ideally, i say start PCT as you planned..... but if this is one of those life changing jobs where you know you have one chance, then risking 14 weeks might be worth it to you.


#3

It'll be a 12 week cycle I've just got 2 weeks left. I'll start the HCG for the last 10 days of my cycle. Everyone seems to run Nolva and Clomid at the same time.

I've also heard people run AIs during PCT. Any insight there?


#4

Disparate effect of Clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro

E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen

The direct effects of Clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (lh - leutenizing hormone - ) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of lh - leutenizing hormone - release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated lh - leutenizing hormone - release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of lh - leutenizing hormone - . Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

In Summary: These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more lh - leutenizing hormone - will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex , pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more lh - leutenizing hormone - was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and lh - leutenizing hormone - levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.


#5

Thanks for the literature to back it. I'll take it before the broscience any day. Awesome reference.