T Nation

Experts? Settle This Argument

I had this argument.

Me:
You need to eat immediately after working out(and during/gatorade) and consisting of high glycemic carbs and protein (skim milk and sugary cereal/white toast and jelly are examples of cheap sources). This raises your insulin sensitivity for when you need it.

You need to eat low glycemic carbs the rest of the time that you DO eat carbs (which should be rarely, mainly breakfast. ex. oatmeal, sweet potatoes, fruits etc). NOT Eating after 8pm isn’t recommended because you need to spread your calories as evenly over your time as possible, but you do need to avoid all carbs in the evening (exept vegetables).

Eat wild salmon. Eat turkey and chicken breasts. Eat brocolli. Lift heavy (build muscle for higher resting metabolism), take long easy walks and/or high intensity interval sprints but don’t jog (wastes muscle). These are guaranteed tips. Good luck.

HIM:
Beware: Gold’s Gym Science Alert.

Not eating an hour after a workout stimulates the release of HGH. This is a proven fact in multiple sources of scientific literature. Some supplements accentuate this effect but I won’t bother to get into that.

Eating after 8 p.m. is a bad idea if you are in fact trying to maintain or lose weight. At this point your metabolism is very slow. If you are looking to gain that may be a different story but your post was vague.

P.S. My professional credentials are second to none if anyone on this board. I’ve trained pro athletes in fitness and conditioning programs etc. not to mentioned coordinating care with MD’s whose primary practice is nutrition. My advice is to not take Muscle Mag based advice and pursue someone with credentials if you are so inclined.

I think my position is what I learned from T-Nation so I don’t know if anybody will disagree with me here, but are there any experts who know about this?

I’m no expert but I can point out what I have noticed from experience.

Saying “after 8pm” is retarded, as I may go to bed at 1am, so what - I must starve for 5 hours? If you’re trying to lose weight, eat slow release proteins / no carbs, maybe 1-2 hours before going to sleep. Bulking on the other hand, you eat all the time, even munch on something while you sleep.

If it’s been proven that not eating for an HOUR after working out stimulates HGH, then why the fuck would all 99% of the coaches on this site recommend eating in that time frame, mainly a P+C meal? From what I remember, it’s better not to slam down a PWO shake the second you finish your workout, but wait about 15 minutes or so.

Remember, you grow when you eat and sleep, not when you workout.

I’m more of an expert than that guy could ever be; i’ve been trained extensively by wikipedia and have done at least 4 workouts in my life! So whatever he says is wrong

It depends…

How long or how catabolic is the workout in question?

How much or what type of food is being considered for late meals?

What condition is the individual in question currently in?

What goals does the individual in question have?

What type of metabolism does the person in question have?

Personally, I think it also pays to consider what your workout entailed. If you are getting more experienced and into heavier weights and did a large volume leg day, you’ve just trashed yourself. If you’ve just completed bicep day, you haven’t.

Eating massively and right before going to sleep to recover those biceps might be overkill (unless you are still recovering from legs the day before), for example.

Anyway, I’m not willing to declare myself an expert, so you won’t be getting any “answers” from me.

There is debate about the “recovery window” for post workout recovery nutrition. Some say within thirty minutes and some say up to two hours later. I don’t think nailing it down to a precise second is needed. IMO as long as you are having your Surge or “meal” anywhere from right when your are done to an hour later you are fine.

D

Uh, one more thing. I was eating every three hours and having a shake right at bed time for years and carrying some unwanted fat. For the past two or three months I have my last solid food meal around six to seven which is usually some slab of meat and vegetables. When I go to bed I have BCAA’s and that’s it. I have really been dropping the fat at phenominal rate as of late while maintaing muscle and getting stronger on my lifts.

D

Thanks guys. The way I learned from this site is that peri-workout and post-workout, simple carbs and protein are ideal. This guy basically claims to be a doctor type that is discounting what I said as “muscle-mag” BS as if T-Nation writers just make it up to sell Surge. I don’t know, I thought Berardi had some scientific evidence but I’ll try to look it up.

The scientific research in support of your view was done by John Ivy and is in his book Nutrient Timing. The other guy’s viewpoint I think is pushed by Phil Campbell, see
http://www.readysetgofitness.com/. I don’t have the book in front of me but best I can recall is that what he says is slightly different.

It is something like minimize sugars after working out in order to maximize fat loss. But I think he agrees that you need sugars to maximize muscle gain. His book references all the HGH studies.

I like to do both.

Im always mixing the way I eat and train up. Constantly. Sometimes i eat before bed for weeks at a time, then sometimes I dont eat after 9 for weeks at a time.

In general though, I like to have a little Grow! and a piece of fruit, something, anything, in me after a workout.

I found a lot of flaws and generalizations in both viewpoints.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
I found a lot of flaws and generalizations in both viewpoints.[/quote]

Ok

[quote]Gold’s Gym Science Expert says:
Not eating an hour after a workout stimulates the release of HGH. This is a proven fact in multiple sources of scientific literature. Some supplements accentuate this effect but I won’t bother to get into that.
[/quote]

While is true, one could very well argue that a post-workout shake made up of high GI carbs and protein would be EVEN BETTER than a little HGH secretion following exercise. Why is this?

After exercise, your body is in a catabolic state (obviously). Cortisol is running amuck and is essentially FSU (not to get TOO scientific here haha). So what you want to do at this point is shift your body out of a catabolic state and into an anabolic one; this can best be accomplished through:

Insulin, one of the most anabolic hormones in your body (some have argued it’s THE most, but whatever). Insulin is, amongst other things, a cortisol antagonist, meaning that it will negate the effects of cortisol upon your body (so in this case it’s anti-catabolic). So how do we go about releasing insulin? Through the high GI carbs AND the whey protein most people toss into their post-workout shakes (remember, carbs + protein = more insulin than either alone). A ratio of 3:1 c/p is generally what is recommended, I think.

Now, what will insulin do for you? A few things: a) it will increase blood flow to your muscles, allowing more nutrients to get there and to also speed up the removal of wastes b) replenish glycogen storages in the muscle tissue, c) help put your body into an anabolic state, halting further muscle breakdown and putting protein synthesis into hyper drive.

This information is from the book Nutrient Timing. I don’t have it on me at the moment, so I can’t get into much more detail than that (the book gives a LOT of cool numbers and statistics), though I think Berardi touched on a lot of this in his Post-Workout Puzzle articles.

As far as WHEN, exactly, you should take it…well, different strokes for different folks. Some say wait (I think Barr wrote an article saying it was best to wait), whereas others (Poliquin, I believe) say to take it before the sweat dries from your body. Obviously, your success in the gym doesn’t hinge on WHEN you drink it (within reason), so long as you DO drink it.

I would probably say something like Gatorade powder and plain whey protein would be best post-workout (if you’re MacGyver in the kitchen) or Surge (if you’re not) as opposed to sugary cereal and milk. But I guess whatever floats your boat is best. Just make sure to follow up on it with a large meal soon after to keep the insulin flowing and nutrients coming to the muscles.

I assume that you guys agree on pre-workout nutrition, though?

[quote]Gold’s Gym Science Expert says:
Eating after 8 p.m. is a bad idea if you are in fact trying to maintain or lose weight. At this point your metabolism is very slow.
[/quote]

This is a pretty generalized statement. I happen to work out at night, so my metabolism gets a kick in the crotch after this time. And, like rsg said: it would depend on when you go to bed, as well.

Though, to be perfectly honest, I agree with eengrms76…I found a few flaws on both sides of the street and think both of you should brush up on this subject. No offense, of course, but just so you can have a little more ammo next time such a topic arises.

a caveat: I am a Sophomore year (20 year old) Physical Therapy major with no credentials whatsoever. I realize what I’ve written may not be as in-depth as you’d like in terms of information and sources (as this is a post, not an article). So take what I say with a grain (or shaker) of salt and perhaps read Berardi’s Post-Workout Puzzle articles and perhaps invest in Nutrient Timing (excellent read).

Hope I didn’t put too many of you to sleep…

[quote]allNatural wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
I found a lot of flaws and generalizations in both viewpoints.

Ok[/quote]

Oh- were you expecting me to state them? I was just commenting on the fact that if it were a real argument- neither would really win. Although you would get more votes.

[quote]conner wrote:
Gold’s Gym Science Expert says:
Not eating an hour after a workout stimulates the release of HGH. This is a proven fact in multiple sources of scientific literature. Some supplements accentuate this effect but I won’t bother to get into that.

While is true, one could very well argue that a post-workout shake made up of high GI carbs and protein would be EVEN BETTER than a little HGH secretion following exercise. Why is this?

After exercise, your body is in a catabolic state (obviously). Cortisol is running amuck and is essentially FSU (not to get TOO scientific here haha). So what you want to do at this point is shift your body out of a catabolic state and into an anabolic one; this can best be accomplished through:

Insulin, one of the most anabolic hormones in your body (some have argued it’s THE most, but whatever). Insulin is, amongst other things, a cortisol antagonist, meaning that it will negate the effects of cortisol upon your body (so in this case it’s anti-catabolic). So how do we go about releasing insulin? Through the high GI carbs AND the whey protein most people toss into their post-workout shakes (remember, carbs + protein = more insulin than either alone). A ratio of 3:1 c/p is generally what is recommended, I think.

Now, what will insulin do for you? A few things: a) it will increase blood flow to your muscles, allowing more nutrients to get there and to also speed up the removal of wastes b) replenish glycogen storages in the muscle tissue, c) help put your body into an anabolic state, halting further muscle breakdown and putting protein synthesis into hyper drive.

This information is from the book Nutrient Timing. I don’t have it on me at the moment, so I can’t get into much more detail than that (the book gives a LOT of cool numbers and statistics), though I think Berardi touched on a lot of this in his Post-Workout Puzzle articles.

As far as WHEN, exactly, you should take it…well, different strokes for different folks. Some say wait (I think Barr wrote an article saying it was best to wait), whereas others (Poliquin, I believe) say to take it before the sweat dries from your body. Obviously, your success in the gym doesn’t hinge on WHEN you drink it (within reason), so long as you DO drink it.

I would probably say something like Gatorade powder and plain whey protein would be best post-workout (if you’re MacGyver in the kitchen) or Surge (if you’re not) as opposed to sugary cereal and milk. But I guess whatever floats your boat is best. Just make sure to follow up on it with a large meal soon after to keep the insulin flowing and nutrients coming to the muscles.

I assume that you guys agree on pre-workout nutrition, though?

Gold’s Gym Science Expert says:
Eating after 8 p.m. is a bad idea if you are in fact trying to maintain or lose weight. At this point your metabolism is very slow.

This is a pretty generalized statement. I happen to work out at night, so my metabolism gets a kick in the crotch after this time. And, like rsg said: it would depend on when you go to bed, as well.

Though, to be perfectly honest, I agree with eengrms76…I found a few flaws on both sides of the street and think both of you should brush up on this subject. No offense, of course, but just so you can have a little more ammo next time such a topic arises.

a caveat: I am a Sophomore year (20 year old) Physical Therapy major with no credentials whatsoever. I realize what I’ve written may not be as in-depth as you’d like in terms of information and sources (as this is a post, not an article). So take what I say with a grain (or shaker) of salt and perhaps read Berardi’s Post-Workout Puzzle articles and perhaps invest in Nutrient Timing (excellent read).

Hope I didn’t put too many of you to sleep…[/quote]

That is pretty much what I told him…I think the affects of PWO nutrition would outweigh any HGH affects. And like the other guy said about there being flaws in my argument…ok. Doesn’t mean much without pointing them out…

Me: You need to do what’s right to accomplish your goals.

[quote]allNatural wrote:
That is pretty much what I told him…I think the affects of PWO nutrition would outweigh any HGH affects.
[/quote]

Then you’ve got nothing to worry about, my friend. I believe the consensus amongst most people here would be that, as well. If he doesn’t listen, or if he refuses to read the articles, then don’t sweat it. Let the results you and your clients achieve speak for themselves.

Friday night, I’m out. Best of luck to ya.

“HIM” sounds like he’s been reading Arthur Devany’s blog. He’s a big believer in not consuming calories especially H.G. carbs like Gatorade after a workout. Says it blunts your GH release. Also “fasting” for 15 hours from your last night-time meal until your breakfast.

Sounds like he’s got a lot of science to back him up. I’m sure it’s not the best way to go if your trying to get REALLY BIG though.

[quote]allNatural wrote:
And like the other guy said about there being flaws in my argument…ok. Doesn’t mean much without pointing them out…[/quote]

Ok…

[quote]allNatural wrote:
You need to eat immediately after working out(and during/gatorade) and consisting of high glycemic carbs and protein (skim milk and sugary cereal/white toast and jelly are examples of cheap sources). This raises your insulin sensitivity for when you need it.[/quote]

You don’t “need” to drink anything during your workout. And really- sugary cereal? When is that ever a good idea?

You don’t have to always eat low GI carbs. Especially if you’re trying to gain mass. And you certainly don’t have to eat them “rarely”. These general statements seem more appropraite for a cutting phase. The whole avoid carbs in the evening is overrated too. You hear it everywhere but without much to back it up, at least in my opinion. Although this is the best time for those low GI carbs and some fiber. Case in point- what if you workout in the evening- are you going to avoid your PWO just because it’s late? It really doesn’t matter what time of day you eat what, as long as what you eat and the amount of it supports your goals. It’s ok to disagree with me here.

Is beef the devil? There are also about 100 other vegetables besides brocolli. Yes it’s one of the best, but you should really expand your horizons.

Like I said- you’d win out if we were voting. But some of your statements were a little over generalized.

[quote]AKA wrote:
I’m more of an expert than that guy could ever be; i’ve been trained extensively by wikipedia and have done at least 4 workouts in my life! So whatever he says is wrong[/quote]

Your wit is sharp as a butter knife.

Not eating AFTER a workout? That is dead wrong. But, there is some good science relative to not eating before a workout. You stimulate more HGH that way.