T Nation

Expert Advice on Estrogen Control

hi guys.

First of all i want to apologize for messing around with steroids and i am sure i’ll find a solution to my problem here. last year i did a cycle of deca 100mg/test e 250 mg/sust 250 mg per week for seven weeks. in the end of cycle i took 500 iu HCG for pct i took nolvadex 20/10/10.

Even after 4 months of pct my balls were atrophied that got me worried. without getting blood work done i took one HCG shot 2000iu that worsen the conditions. I got serious ED and panic attacks. after 4 weeks of HCG shot i did blood tests

LH - 7.4 ref range 2-9
testosterone - 620 ref range 250-850
estrogen E2 - 58 ref range 15-40

as my estrogen was high so i tried to fix it. i took nolvadex 20mg per day for 4 weeks and did blood test of estrogen nothing changed. that was another wrong move. i waited few weeks and jumped over to arimidex did .5mg per day within a week my E2 moved from 58 to 36 continued the same dosing - .5 mg for another week, labs showed a reading of 10 so i stopped arimidex. after 2 weeks i got my level tested reading came out to be 52.
i felt great when i was on starting days of arimidex balls gained size,strong morning wood.

i am still suffering from high E2 symptoms like weak
erections,gynecomastia,testicular atrophy,brain fog,mental depression. my doc ordered some blood tests-

LH - 9.33 ref range 2-9
FSH - 5.01 ref range 2-15
testosterone - 799 ref range 250-850
vitamin b12 - 264 ref range 211-946
vitamin d - 15.06 ref range 20-32
cortisol morning - 21.16 ref range 8-25
cortisol evening - 9.78 ref range 1-17

my question is should i use aromasin to lower E2 ?
should i do a low dose of arimidex and slowly taper followed by nolvadex ?

looking forward for advice
thnks

bump ^^ anyone ? please

First thing I would do is take a deep breath and calm down. Your levels are not terrible, and your estrogen isnt super high either. Anxiety alone can cause ED and affect libido. Did you take HCG during PCT? HCG is not to be used during PCT, but during cycle, as it is suppressive to your HPTA, and will only inhibit recovery if taken during PCT.

Thank you so much for replying. Yes i did took one shot of HCG 500 IU at the end of cycle, right before pct, and one shot of 2000 IU 4 months AFTER PCT. Have i permanently damaged my HPTA ? it has been nearly 5 months since my last injection of HCG and my estrogen is still high. Will it calm down on its own or should i use aromasin as i got a rebound from aimidex.

I agree with CougarPride. Taking HCG during PCT was a bad idea. Taking Nolvadex to take care of estrogen was also a bad idea. You seem to have realized that so let’s move on.

Your initial dose of Arimidex was probably too high. Guys on TRT usually recommend something like 1mg/week with some who are sensitive to it taking much less. So .5mg/day will probably drive estrogen too low, as it did in your case where your levels dropped to 10 pg/ml after two weeks. Low estrogen and high estrogen share some of the same side effects (low libido, depression).

Looks like your initial levels were high, then too low while on high dose Arimidex and now that you are off it they are high again. You felt good when you started the taking Armidex probably because at that point your levels where somewhere in a “functional” range, before crashing.

My advice would be to start taking a low dose and be patient. Give the dose something like four weeks before testing your estrogen levels. Once you get your results, adjust the dose if you need to. You can shoot for a 20-30 pg/ml level.

Best of luck.

EDIT: I forgot to mention: your doctor didn’t test your estrogen levels on that last panel. You should probably do this before you start taking any dose of Arimidex. You also seem to be deficient in Vitamin D and should take care of this.

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Thanks for replying eaboadar. I am very much convinced by your reply, the dose of arimidex i took was very high and that dropped my E2 way below the sweet spot, creating same conditions as of high estrogen. I’ll be thankful if you reply to some of my questions :-

a) I plan on taking .25 mg of arimidex E2D for 2 weeks then .25 mg E3D for 2 weeks, is this ok ?
b) Should i use SERM after discontinuing arimidex ? or is it that i take arimidex for a long time like 3-4 years ( I know it sounds very stupid to ask. really sorry for this.)
c) Are there any chances of rebound at this dose of arimidex ? if yes ! then should i go for aromasin ?
d) I hope i have not permanently damaged my HPTA by using 2000 IU HCG in a single shot post pct !

I’ll definitely get a blood test of estrogen before starting arimidex and post the numbers.
thank you !

Remember I’m no expert on the subject. I don’t have a degree on anything related to health sciences, only some basic pre-grad chemistry and biology and whatever knowledge I’ve gathered from these forums and reading some papers on PubMed plus some first hand experience. So take everything I say (and everything anyone on the internet says) with a grain of salt and don’t let it take the place of your own research and the opinions of experts. Keeping this in mind, here’s what I think:

a) The first dosing schedule (.25mg E2D) would give you an average of .875mg/week, which sounds like a reasonable point to start. .25 E3D would give you an average of .58mg/week, which is also reasonable, although this dosing schedule would put the individual doses too far apart, given the half-life of the drug, which seems to be around 40-50 hours*. I would suggest remaining at any given dose for 3-4 weeks before retesting and not changing the dose before that because this will leave you in the blind as to the effects of a particular dose. As I said before, be patient. Pick a starting dose, stay with it for a while, test levels, adjust, repeat. This is the surest way to get to finding your correct dose without risking going through the roller-coaster you already went through.

b, c) Nothing that I’ve encountered suggests that this is necessary and SERMs have their own risks and side effects. The most effective approach to avoid an estrogen rebound seems to be tapering off the Arimidex. So after a period of taking a given dose (I don’t know how much time this could be in your case) you could take half of that dose for a couple of weeks and then half of that for another couple of weeks before finally stopping.

d) I don’t think it reasonable to blame your situation on the one shot of HCG. In any case your HPTA does not appear to be damaged. Your LH, FSH and Total Testosterone levels are good. There seems to be a problem of excess aromatization for some reason.

Also, I think it’s in your best interest to take care of that Vitamin D deficiency.

  • Sometimes it’s difficult to dose Arimidex in pill form because it’s almost impossible to cut the pills into 1/8 pieces. You could dissolve one pill into a known amount of high proof liquor (vodka works well) and take the fraction of the solution you require to give you the dose you want. This also allows for every day doing, which would yield the most stable levels, although EOD is probably just as well.
1 Like

Thanks eaboadar for replying again. I don’t think I’ll ever find such straight and strong answers to my questions anywhere else on the internet.

So what i have planed is to get a blood test of Estrogen before starting arimidex. If blood test values are high I’ll start with a low dose of .25 mg E2D for 2 weeks, will get the levels tested after 2 weeks and will adjust accordingly. For controlling rebound I will slowly taper off arimidex just the way you explained.

I am blaming HCG for my situation because I think that high dose of HCG might have raised ITT ( Intratesticular testosterone ) causing more aromatization in my balls. ( Not sure about this statement )

As far as Vitamin D deficiency is concerned I’ll take a good multivitamin for this. (Thank you for pointing this out)

Also, I never knew about dissolving arimidex in a high proof liquor. Can i dissolve 1 mg arimidex in 10 ml of vodka and take nearly 1.5 ml of the mixture everyday, as 1.5 ml for 7 days gives nearly 10 ml of mixture, corresponding to 1mg arimidex per week. just to get more stable results.

Thanks.

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
b, c) Nothing that I’ve encountered suggests that this is necessary and SERMs have their own risks and side effects. The most effective approach to avoid an estrogen rebound seems to be tapering off the Arimidex. So after a period of taking a given dose (I don’t know how much time this could be in your case) you could take half of that dose for a couple of weeks and then half of that for another couple of weeks before finally stopping.
[/quote]
Why would you expect the estorgen levels to remain at the lowered state after the taper? If after a year post-cycle they are still elevated, there must be something pathologic that is keeping it that way. If that is the case, it seems like continued administration of the AI would be called for, or a lifestyle change, or a combination.

[quote]pcdude wrote:

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
b, c) Nothing that I’ve encountered suggests that this is necessary and SERMs have their own risks and side effects. The most effective approach to avoid an estrogen rebound seems to be tapering off the Arimidex. So after a period of taking a given dose (I don’t know how much time this could be in your case) you could take half of that dose for a couple of weeks and then half of that for another couple of weeks before finally stopping.
[/quote]
Why would you expect the estorgen levels to remain at the lowered state after the taper? If after a year post-cycle they are still elevated, there must be something pathologic that is keeping it that way. If that is the case, it seems like continued administration of the AI would be called for, or a lifestyle change, or a combination.[/quote]

Sometimes the underlying cause get solved during treatment, either by itself or because of a change of external factors affecting it. This may or may not be the case for the OP. I was not suggesting that the treatment itself would produce a lasting therapeutic effect after it has ceased. And I agree with your last statement.

[quote]sam94 wrote:
Thanks eaboadar for replying again. I don’t think I’ll ever find such straight and strong answers to my questions anywhere else on the internet.

So what i have planed is to get a blood test of Estrogen before starting arimidex. If blood test values are high I’ll start with a low dose of .25 mg E2D for 2 weeks, will get the levels tested after 2 weeks and will adjust accordingly. For controlling rebound I will slowly taper off arimidex just the way you explained.

I am blaming HCG for my situation because I think that high dose of HCG might have raised ITT ( Intratesticular testosterone ) causing more aromatization in my balls. ( Not sure about this statement )

As far as Vitamin D deficiency is concerned I’ll take a good multivitamin for this. (Thank you for pointing this out)

Also, I never knew about dissolving arimidex in a high proof liquor. Can i dissolve 1 mg arimidex in 10 ml of vodka and take nearly 1.5 ml of the mixture everyday, as 1.5 ml for 7 days gives nearly 10 ml of mixture, corresponding to 1mg arimidex per week. just to get more stable results.

Thanks.

[/quote]

You first stated that you were planning on taking .25mg E2D. This would average .875mg/week. You then suggested taking a solution of 1mg Adex/10ml Vodka at 10.5 ml/week (1.5ml/day x 7) as an alternative. This would give you 1.05mg of Arimidex per week. So the two schedules are not equivalent.

Please realize that this is not a quick fix to your problem and if you decide to take the drug you may need to take it for a prolonged period of time (several months or even years) before considering tapering off. In any case, consult with an expert before doing it, or at the very least tell an expert what you are going to do. Anti-aging doctors seem to be the most knowledgeable on this.

Hey eaboadar,

I have read that aromasin being a suicidal inhibitor kills aromatase enzymes, wouldn’t that be a better option? like starting with a low dose of aromasin and getting blood tests to keep a track of estrogen, once within the range then discontinue the drug ?
and can you please clear the doubts in my previous post about dissolving arimidex in a high proof liquor?

Thank you.

Thanks eaboadar, I will definitely consult with an expert before doing it. Yes i do realize that this is not a quick fix but if

Thanks eaboadar

I do realize that this is not a quick fix. But i didn’t understand the need for taking it for prolonged periods ?
Is it that arimidex requires more time for some people to lower Estrogen ? or is it because once within the range, the level has to be maintained for a long time before tappering.

Also, can you please explain going the other way by using aromasin at a low dose can be beneficial ? as aromasin being a suicidal inhibitor kills aromatase enzyme. Though I don’t want to lower estrogen too much as it is a very potent drug, so discontinuing the drug once estrogen comes within normal ranges.

And i will definitely consult with an expert preferably an anti aging doctor before taking any of these drugs.

[quote]sam94 wrote:
hi guys.

First of all i want to apologize for messing around with steroids and i am sure i’ll find a solution to my problem here. last year i did a cycle of deca 100mg/test e 250 mg/sust 250 mg per week for seven weeks. in the end of cycle i took 500 iu HCG for pct i took nolvadex 20/10/10.

Even after 4 months of pct my balls were atrophied that got me worried. without getting blood work done i took one HCG shot 2000iu that worsen the conditions. I got serious ED and panic attacks. after 4 weeks of HCG shot i did blood tests

LH - 7.4 ref range 2-9
testosterone - 620 ref range 250-850
estrogen E2 - 58 ref range 15-40

as my estrogen was high so i tried to fix it. i took nolvadex 20mg per day for 4 weeks and did blood test of estrogen nothing changed. that was another wrong move. i waited few weeks and jumped over to arimidex did .5mg per day within a week my E2 moved from 58 to 36 continued the same dosing - .5 mg for another week, labs showed a reading of 10 so i stopped arimidex. after 2 weeks i got my level tested reading came out to be 52.
i felt great when i was on starting days of arimidex balls gained size,strong morning wood.

i am still suffering from high E2 symptoms like weak
erections,gynecomastia,testicular atrophy,brain fog,mental depression. my doc ordered some blood tests-

LH - 9.33 ref range 2-9
FSH - 5.01 ref range 2-15
testosterone - 799 ref range 250-850
vitamin b12 - 264 ref range 211-946
vitamin d - 15.06 ref range 20-32
cortisol morning - 21.16 ref range 8-25
cortisol evening - 9.78 ref range 1-17

my question is should i use aromasin to lower E2 ?
should i do a low dose of arimidex and slowly taper followed by nolvadex ?

looking forward for advice
thnks[/quote]

Sounds like you have a compounding problem, lol (pun intended)

The best advice anyone can give you at this time is to slow things down and relax. I honestly think you will be fine as you have come to the right place for answers.

Please make a mental note not to fuck around with these heavy compounds as you still know next to fawk all; NOT cool!
Deca? Bad idea!
HCG for PCT? Bad idea!

Massive doses of Arimidex followed by dropping it completely after a low reading? Bad idea!!!
I’m sure you get the point though. As the other gentlemen said, we’re past scolding you and want to help you out. E2 levels are VERY tricky for some people to maintain

Be diligent and be MUCH more patient moving forward.
I’d highly recommend you go see a naturopath, TRT Dr or Anti-aging physician to address your hormonal concerns at this point
Or…just do as you said you are going to; get bloods and report back
Just give everyone here the respect that you will NOT start dumping compounds at this problem. Move slowly!!! You’re not in as bad of shape as you think
That overactive panicky brain may be your worst nightmare, I don’t know
Good luck. I’ll keep an eye on your posts to see how things turn out

You SHOULD take some time to read ALL the stickies both here and in the TRT forum as a disciplinary action before anyone helps you, IMHO…

Who am I tho?

[quote]sam94 wrote:
Thanks eaboadar

I do realize that this is not a quick fix. But i didn’t understand the need for taking it for prolonged periods ?
Is it that arimidex requires more time for some people to lower Estrogen ? or is it because once within the range, the level has to be maintained for a long time before tappering.

Also, can you please explain going the other way by using aromasin at a low dose can be beneficial ? as aromasin being a suicidal inhibitor kills aromatase enzyme. Though I don’t want to lower estrogen too much as it is a very potent drug, so discontinuing the drug once estrogen comes within normal ranges.

And i will definitely consult with an expert preferably an anti aging doctor before taking any of these drugs. [/quote]

Understand that these drugs are not cures, they are treatment. They stop working once you discontinue their use. They are taken for prolonged periods of time to treat the problem (not the cause) and they can be discontinued after a while in hopes that the underlying causes have subsided. Sometimes this happens and one can stop taking them, other times it doesn’t and the person needs to be on treatment indefinitely. This holds true for both Arimidex, Aromasin, and most other drugs in general. The latter of the two is a suicide inhibitor, yes. This means it binds irreversibly to the enzyme rendering it useless. Aromasin hence, has a “built-in” tapering mechanism because once it is stopped, it takes time for aromatase levels to rebuild, which does eventually happen. The drug doesn’t lower the body’s capability to produce the enzyme permanently after it’s discontinued (or at least I haven’t found any material or anecdotes that suggest this), which is what you seem to believe it does.

So this is not a PCT type of scenario where you take the drugs for a short period of time to get things back on track and then stop taking them.

Thanks ToolManSam and eaboadar for replying.

Hi ToolManSam, I do realize the mistakes that I have made and I am learning from them. I’ll soon visit a TRT doctor regarding this problem. After reading your post and posts by other users I assume that I am not in as bad shape as I think. BTW I feel much better now (still not the best) as compared to the time when i took HCG. Is it that I am recovering ? I guess only blood work can assure this.

Hi eaboadar, I’ll soon get my levels tested, will post the results. Next thing I’ll do is visit a TRT doctor and discuss about the problem. I hope he gives me a more realistic approach for curing this imbalance otherwise I’ll self medicate and will keep you guys update.

I’ll definitely try to keep calm and overcome my panicky brain.
Most importantly, every post posted by you guys moves me a step forward in fixing my problem.
Thank you so much for replying.

I am going to TooLongDidn’tRead everyone (not that there advice isn’t good) because I do not have time at the moment. But your libido issue is attributable to either high estrogen or prolactin at this point. You have recovered so that is good. Nolva has horrible properties for the libido and also does not lower total circulating estrogen. You need a trt dose of exemestane. That should lower total circulating estrogen into range, then taper off.

You did 4 months of pct? That could have caused the shutdown more so than the deca. I’d personally just get off of it all, let your body find its own way back, and it will.

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i jumped from a 3.2 E level to a 66 in 7 weeks. I have never tried to balance E so what would a good dose be for me to bring a 66 down to the 20-30 range? Any feedback appreciated