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Experiment - Test Prop Cycles for Reversing PFS?

Hello all - this will be very unconventional and a true experiment.

First off, I was unlucky enough to develop Post Finasteride Syndrome after a month on it. A year later it’s unresolved. I am slightly better than I was, but in my previous life I was a 200lb lean bodybuilder (nothing to really brag about ofc) and, well, quite insatiable sexually! I have now dropped to 170lbs and declining fast, no libido and near zero sexual function (no morning wood, randoms etc. No sex without viagra.)

It has been pondered, and there have been a number of recoveries randomly reported, after a cycle of steroids, and prevailing wisdom (as in, the most sufferers have to go on) was that Test Prop cycles MAY have improved a few, although exact cycles and dosages are scarce.

What I could really do with help in trying is a few short Test Prop cycles, maybe 6 weeks tops, then PCT and 10 weeks off, then repeat.

The thinking behind this is that steroid levels in blood do not represent accurately neurosteroid levels in PFS sufferers, who may well be in Estrogen dominance they can’t get out of. Over time and cycles, the stimulation of DHT through increased Test (created by 5AR ofc) will push Estrogen dominance lower and lower, 5AR will increase DHT. Again this is a thought, not really a cast-iron assertion; nobody has a cure for PFS at all but recoveries (some seemingly VERY random) do happen, and of late several have been reported from running just a cycle of steroids. Annoyingly light on details though some of them are!

Based on a VERY lengthy, evolving topic (HERE if anyone fancies reading) I want to try an experiment based on several smaller Test Prop cycles, to try and either eventually upregulate my own 5AR or challenge the HPTA axis enough times that it re-adjusts. Again, not sure which method will help, as nobody really understands PFS.

Questions I have at this point (probably more to follow) are:

  • If I ran a cycle of low-dose prop, say 20mg EOD for 6 weeks, would I need HCG? How low dose/short a cycle could I go without needing it?

  • AI throughout will be Arimidex. Apparently other AIs are not great in PFS, though Letro has been used.

  • I’d prefer Clomid for PCT (there are stories that has recovered some alone) - could someone help me construct a PCT?

Thanks all. I appreciate this will be INCREDIBLY alien to most objectives here. I’ve taken prohormones in that former life before, but this is truly an experimental cycle. I do still lift and eat paleo/carb backloading but the goal here isn’t really build muscle, it’s more shift PFS some.

It would mean a HUGE amount to me to receive any help, and if we get anywhere would help a lot of men suffering a very great deal.

Thank you all so much in advance for any time and patience you can spare on this.

  1. You would not need hcg for such a short, low dose cycle.
  2. For 20mg/d you absolutely should not need an AI. You run more risk crashing your e2 than you do of getting high e2 at that dose and duration. Seems like a risk not worth taking.
  3. Clomid would be best used 50/50/25/25, assuming you are sold on using it. Nolva is better overall, but if Clomid has a good track record for PFS sufferers then perhaps you should stick to that.

Rather than just low test prop, what about adding masteron into the mix? If DHT is an issue and you want to specifically increase it over time, why not go with something that is derived from it? Because it’s going to take a long time with this plan the way it is. You’re talking about six weeks on what is essentially TRT levels, then pct, then another six weeks off, then on again, rinse, repeat.

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Exactly what I was thinking about Mast. Even a low dose addition would likely be beneficial to libido.

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Thank you both so much for wading in.

To try and answer as best as I can, masteron has been used in PFS and yes people report feeling cured/like gods on it, but crash back afterwards, sometimes worse off than they were. The thinking behind it is that you down-regulate your own 5AR doing so, and once you’re off your neurosteroid levels of estrogen rebound worse, testosterone then aromatising more and nothing by way of your own DHT to oppose it. AI will probably be necessary as PFS sufferers (and some in latter stages of healing) respond very strangely to steroids and need LOTS of AI. Over time, it’s reported that on the lower cycles PFS sufferers need less and less AI, but without symptoms seem to be exasperated by exogenous test. Many (myself included) seem to feel some improvement from AIs alone, and these tend to be those who still have average levels of natural test, estrogen etc in blood, which was where the idea of unbalanced neurosteroids originally came from.

I was pondering adding in sorghum for the duration to try and up-regulate my own 5AR, as well as plenty of cardio too. I do appreciate this is very much not what any bodybuilder would do!

Again, thank you both.

When would you start the PCT after the cycle? Wait a week or jump on it asap?

If it’s test prop then you can start pct 3-5 days after. It clears very quickly, so no need to wait.

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Thanks so much all. I’m keen to test this out and see if I can ‘nudge’ my own 5AR into working as it does seem like that’s depleted in neurosteroids alone.

I anticipate feeling like crap (as most attempts to boost androgens in myself do, which I think is aromatisation tbh rather than androgens themselves) and that I’ll be able to modulate this with lots of AI (arimidex.) After the 6 weeks are up, PCT and then await any snapbacks/correction following. The second cycle will be the acid test, and see if I need less AI. If so, this will be the direction.

It’s been said by a few PFS sufferers that if 100 bodybuilders got PFS there’d be a solution in weeks, but as all we’ve got are clueless endos and doctors nothing much has come along. I’m very grateful for any and all advice, thank you all and wish me luck.

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Just out of curiosity (definitely only speculation) what’s the MAXIMUM dose of prop you’d run ED/EOD without feeling the need for HCG?

I am going to feel my way around with this cycle. If it doesn’t work I’ll try higher doses of prop, heftier PCTs in future. But further future, for now just an experiment.

Thanks again for the advice.

If it’s still a short cycle then I would speculate you don’t need hcg, irrespective of dose. It’s when you start running longer cycles that I think hcg becomes less of an option and more of a requirement.

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Thanks much. I’ll have some on hand however just in case, and if I feel the need to run a more hefty PCT.

Thinking of outlining things here as I go. As it sits below, everything I need is in my drawer currently.

I’m going to increase the amount of Test Prop to a ‘low-ish cycle’ dose. My thinking being the short life of Prop means if I get some reaction to increasing androgens it’ll all be gone fairly swiftly. If I ‘react’ more or less like a normal AAS user then great, I’ll give the androgen receptors two months of being bathed in Prop and estrogen being fought. I anticipate (based on PFS) that I’ll get hefty estrogen sides and have to put the Arimidex to work fairly early on. I have mental sides to regulate there, with Letro if I need it. I have a WEALTH of Nolva on hand too but a little gyno really wouldn’t bother me, happily go for surgery after! It’s the working dick and mind I want… Then hoping the PCT brings it all back into line.

HCG I have too, and will either run 1000iu/wk or 500iu 2x/wk. Not decided fully yet, read too much conflicting info on it.

I’ll do pre-cycle bloods next weekend and probably aim to start mid-November.

So, outline here:

Cycle: 8 weeks

Test Prop - 75mg EOD
HCG - 1000iu - 1/week Sunday PM -or- 500iu - 2/week
Arimidex - 0.5mg ED but go higher as needed to prevent estrogen surges. Take when needed.

PCT: 5 weeks

Clomid - (Day1 100mg) 50/50/20/20/0
Nolva - 40/40/20/20/10
Tribulus (MediHerb) - 4 tabs/day split AM/PM

On standby:

Letro
Antibiotics (SO many - in case of infection)

Any and all thoughts (especially from the infinitely patient @iron_yuppie) very very welcome. I realise this is an experiment rather than a mass-gaining exercise, but as long as I’m not doing anything stupid or too dangerous.

Just wanted to chime in here

idk, depends how tall you are. I don’t understand why people think 200lb is small. If I was 200lb I’d probably be prepping for IFBB pro competitions… If you’re under 5’11 and 200lbs lean (say below 15% BF) I’d say that’s pretty damn good (for natty)

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Lol, well that was random and a nice thing to say. Thank you! Couldn’t claim natty though, but had done 2x M1T and a Super DMZ cycle before. Started those when I was 30yo, did one about every other year, 36 now. Super DMZ I ran last summer in fact, then PCT went fine, then a few weeks after thought I’d check out that finasteride everyone raves about.

6 feet tall and guesstimated bodyfat at around 15% at the time but not great lifting stats. Bench was 120kg, squat I think 110kg but I was very fearful at aggravating back issues from younger so was ultra-careful. Deads only 130kg too, same reason.

I mean I definitely looked like a guy who lifted for sure, and my girl at the time described me as muscly.

Fuck, feels like such a different life now. Like it’s miles and miles away.

My bench was like 105kg, but now I have bursitis and somehow a potential fracture within my shoulder complex (if I’m interpreting the ultrasound results correctly)… so… no benching for me

Can’t figure out how I’d’ve broken my shoulder though. Interestingly, I find deadlifts are one of the few lifts that helped my back pain (executed correctly). Perhaps the fracture was misinterpreted for the structural abnormalities present within my shoulder

Yup, the mentality of which muscle mass is deemed a critically important factor in life isn’t a healthy one, yet I harbour it too, and many of us do. Unfortunately at this point I’m of the opinion if one has grown up with intensive exercise as a pivotal aspect of their life, no amount of therapy will be able to counteract this mentality… At least for some

I exercise for a myriad of reasons, to let off steam, to vent anger harboured towards many in relation to how I’m frequently treated like shit, because I crave the endorphin rush acquired from intensive exercise (both aerobic and anaerobic), and finally in order to accrue muscle mass. Exercise/body composition is one of the few variables within my life I can control to what I perceive to be optimisation, that coupled with the euphoria it brings me etc pretty much rules out the possibility of it NOT being a part of my life. Whether this quantifies as mental illness… probably, however many of us (I believe) harbour similar ideologies, and the medical community simply doesn’t understand why taking a year off to see if things improve isn’t exactly a feasible task.

As to anabolic steroids, aside from the inherent risks, there’s no denying they allow one to exercise with a far higher level of intensity for longer durations of time without tiring, hence why, aside from the results one gets… the use of such agents is reinforcing, not to mention the positive attention people give one for achieving a nice physique (blame society, not us lol)

I’m not 6 foot though, 5’5 at a push…

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Okay, had a bit of a read and from a mix of recoveries and thinking (and perhaps some very confused ideas) the latest proposed cycle follows:

Summary:
We know 5AR converts test to DHT. Fin binds to 5AR1,2,&3 and thus DHT drops. This helps prostate conditions, hairloss etc. It’s assumed that the lack of DHT and other 5AR metabolites in blood, certain tissues and brain/spinal fluid cause sides and also assumed that the return of DHT on cessation of fin causes some epigenetic silencing. Also, some PFS sufferers might have a problem regenerating certain types of 5AR, which would (as an assumption) account for the gamut of symptoms, where some have only neurological sides, numb skin, or sexual problems, or the lot and varying cascades of hormonal issues. There are also many instances of very high densities of androgen receptors. Lots of PFS patients also have normal levels of androgens AND DHT (like myself) but shrunken testes, ED, neurological issues, suddenly lost lifelong allergies etc. The assumption could be that the AR are silenced.

Most repeatable (take this with a grain of salt here) protocol-based recoveries cycled DHT prohormones (the now discontinued Super R-Andro RX) and testosterone-boosting herbs which, perhaps, bombard the AR with high levels of DHT for 6-8 weeks which, perhaps, de-sensitises the AR and then when DHT is withdrawn, may just force them to re-sensitise with herbs keeping up/reviving test production.

Given that there have been clomid, nolva, triptorelin and even AAS steroid cycles it might be a fair assumption that cycling androgens and PCT could be a cure for some types of PFS. Just on/off cycles until better.

The Super R-Andro RX I bought a fair bit of a while back, I’m also GUESSING Var could achieve similar - what I’m aiming to do there is up the DHT along with upping the test. This might even appear counter-intuitive as it’d down-regulate 5AR for the duration, but on cessation the snapback effect during PCT may well be that with estrogen crushed the lack of DHT is felt, and 5AR upregulated. Also if the outsider theories about estrogen dominance in prostate and/or brain is correct then this would give those a ‘break’ of a good few months with low estrogen. Again so much of this is speculation and mystery. The R-Andro should keep estrogen nice and low, but PFS patients are reported to have estrogen/aromatisation issues when on AAS, so I might take bloods after a couple of weeks without a specific AI (unless I start growing tits and crying) and just let DHT oppose the E.

So, anyway, my cycle is all here and I’m about ready to start. I think this is all theory on the curing PFS part but worth a go I feel. At least on the cycle part, as it stands, this looks like a semi-weak Test Prop cycle with a slightly heavy-handed PCT. If anyone fancies a final check and comment then seriously any opinions and thoughts welcome.

Cycle: 8 weeks

Test Prop - 50mg EOD week 1, 75mg EOD weeks 2-8 (MAYBE 100mg EOD weeks 3-8)
HCG - 1000iu - 1x/week, weeks 1-8
Super R-Andro RX - 100mg 2x/day week 1, 200mg 2x/day weeks 2-8
Arimidex - 0.5mg ED but go higher as needed to prevent estrogen surges. Take when needed.

PCT: 5 weeks

Clomid - (Day1 100mg) 50/50/20/20/0
Nolva - 20/20/20/10/10
Tribulus (MediHerb) - 4 tabs/day split AM/PM -or- Blue Up (stim free) 4tabs/day split AM/PM

On standby:

Letro
Antibiotics (SO many - in case of infection)

Diet will be my regular diet of cooked chicken, fresh vegetables and potatoes (but no carbs before midday.) No stimulants (no caffeine etc.) Not going to be optimal for gains (which are a secondary objective for now) but should make 3k calories/day.

Once PCT is done with, it’s sometimes shown gradual unstoppable creeping improvements or six weeks of nothing then rapid healing. Most likely I honestly think it won’t work, but if I slip back again to a higher baseline condition then we’ll have added another bit of evidence to the “fiddling with androgens” angle.

Wish me luck. Might even make some decent lifts in the mean time. :slight_smile:

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I don’t think this will work

If you wish to initially up regulate 5 a reductase and androgen receptors, the best route would be to simply just take DHT and/or something that closely resembles DHT

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Up for any thoughts on why/why not if you fancy.

After initial AR upregulation/synthesis of new androgen receptors, the body re-attains homeostasis by down regulating these new/upregulated receptors once again. In order to synthesise new 5 a reductase theoretically you’d need something to bind to said enzyme with a lot of strength… and I have no research that would tell me this is a thing, I’m merely going by what happens when something binds to the AR very strongly.

Issues with propecia may stem from abnormalities regarding neurotransmission stemming from prolonged deprivation of DHT (metabolites of which act as potent neurosteroids) in which case even recovery of adequate hormonal status wouldn’t be the be all end all fix.

Super R Andro from what I recall is 4-dhea. Prohormones suck because they work via pro-drug pathways, and when ingested there is SO much back and fourth conversion, it isn’t like “hey, androstenedione goes to test, I’mma get jacked as fuck”

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjQ6NP9uoXmAhUWfX0KHVp-D4MQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Ffigure%2FFlow-chart-illustrating-the-possible-cascade-of-local-production-of-androgens-and_fig4_11993673&psig=AOvVaw3jQe22q5Ce8-fJHKYfNi4T&ust=1574774671860764

There’s way more too this graph, however this is a simple look at some of the conversion pathways present with hormonal precursors… plus there is a limit as to how much X can convert to Y

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Ah I see, thanks for that. I think R-Andro is in fact some sort of Androstenedione, which according to the blurb only converts to DHT (not test.) But I guess (as I think you’re trying to explain to me) that’d still “need” 5AR to convert, which would also have the test working on it too, so more free test around to aromatise in to e?

Might be worth keeping a closer eye on e levels and the AI.

But I’ve got a lot of “maybes” above. We don’t actually know they’re silenced, but it seems to be that way (prevailing theory anyway.) There’s a high density of them in PFS patients as has been measured, they just don’t seem to “do” anything even though (as you point out) androgen levels in many with PFS are actually fine.

And if everyone crashed the same way then it’d be more of a help, but it doesn’t seem to be that way. I myself crashed after 4 weeks on fin (1mg/day for four days then almost 4 weeks of 0.5mg Mon/Wed/Fri) and some crashed on 1 pill. Some took years to crash. Some also crashed post-quitting and some whilst on fin. Frustrating there’s nothing really “common” about everyone except being left with a variety of symptoms.

…Anyways, am I keeping up ok? Thanks for taking the time to post that also. If you have a theory also on anything (especially why the most reliable* method of recovery included R-Andro cycles) I’d definitely like to hear it.

Cheers again.

Will reply tomorrow, ‘tis almost 1am here and i’m Gonna drive to gym now… then I’ll have to get up at like 7-8, then fucking work… then leave woooot

I’ll reply in between during any breaks I have

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I’m very grateful thank you, enjoy small-hours gym.

I’m also going to ask probably a daft question, which would be “if you had PFS what would you be doing?” but considering nobody has any idea what it even is don’t feel obliged to start rummaging for cures for me!

Do appreciate the time, thanks again.