Experiences with Proviron/DHT?

Pharma / TRT
1

Ok I know I am going to get flamed for this but I am looking for people’s experiences with proviron in PCT.

I have seen the posts on the board where the general consensus appears to be proviron in any dosage inhibits recovery of the HPTA.

I have reviewed the current literature available on the subject and this appears mixed also. From what I have read it appears to me that externally introduced DHT is not suppressive on the HPTA at all, if dosed at "normal physiological levels. I have also heard this week from a National Bodybuilding Champion who informs me he has no problem recovering his HPTA whilst using proviron throughout his PCT.

Any experiences here? Has anyone used proviron during PCT and had a successful recovery, or not?

If you did information on how long and how much you dosed would be appreciated.

If anyone has any references worth reading I would also appreciate that?

Finally has anyone any idea what dose of proviron equates to a normal physiological level - 25-50mg ED?

Thanks

2

Bump - nobody any info?

3

I have used proviron during the few weeks of clearance and liked it a lot. Really noticed the drying out and vascularity when the water retention from the test starts to dissapear. Not sure if I would run it into PCT or not…just as something to make better use of the last few weeks when the gear is clearing.

I have used it occassionally off cycle and it worked nicely to give a little boost to libido with no apparent decrease in endo test.

Sorry, this doesn’t really answer your question. But it didn’t look like you were going to get an answer anywhere else.

FG

4

By “current literature” do you mean scientific or medical literature, or stuff written by drug dealers sidelining as steroid authors?

5

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
By “current literature” do you mean scientific or medical literature, or stuff written by drug dealers sidelining as steroid authors?[/quote]

Medical/scientific - I realise it does not have a perfect cross over with “my requirements” but it is all that is available. My literature search also turned up very few articles - 6 in total which were mixed in results. The results varied from no impact on HPTA to an approx 50% decrease in HPTA function.

I would greatly value your input and thoughts. I have no doubt that it can’t offer any aid to HPTA function or recovery but am keen to have first hand experiences/information as to wether it actually hinders HPTA function.

I am 42 and enjoy cycling AS - I hate the loss of sex drive and “worry” over recovery at the end of cycles. My only reason for asking is in the hope that proviron may provide a bridge until full recovery occurs. IF not then I am affraid it is probably time for me to call it a day as far as AAS are concerned.

Thanks

6

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
I have used proviron during the few weeks of clearance and liked it a lot. Really noticed the drying out and vascularity when the water retention from the test starts to dissapear. Not sure if I would run it into PCT or not…just as something to make better use of the last few weeks when the gear is clearing.

I have used it occassionally off cycle and it worked nicely to give a little boost to libido with no apparent decrease in endo test.

Sorry, this doesn’t really answer your question. But it didn’t look like you were going to get an answer anywhere else.

FG[/quote]

FG - Thanks for the info - appreciated

7

Well, Proviron isn’t DHT, and so any studies regarding DHT aren’t directly applicable.

But on the subject with DHT, as with any androgen there would be dose dependent inhibition. I’m not familiar with what dose would average, for example, 50% inhibition.

With regard to Proviron itself, which it seemed to me was your real interest, unfortunately there is no study that can be found via Pubmed on this. I came upon it years ago (at least 12 years I would think) by chance while reading through the older literature. I suppose it could be found again by Chem Abstract search but that would be a pain and I can’t do it from here.

At any rate, there was only one dose studied – 50 mg/day – and LH suppression was fairly substantial. I certainly don’t recall the figure, but in the neighborhood of near 50%.

And though people seem to tend to find that contrary to expectation, it really shouldn’t be so surprising that an androgen steroid would be substantially suppressive at 50 mg/day.

Proviron does about nothing for muscle anabolism, and certainly doesn’t help restore HPTA function (on the contrary: it is somewhat suppressive) so it really doesn’t make sense for PCT. If some degree of support is needed or desired, I’d rather – on levels of injectables dropping to something commensurate with say the 100 mg/week level – maintain that level with ongoing small injections combined with a SERM than use the Proviron.

If nothing else, while that added small amount of testosterone would be comparably suppressive as the Proviron, at least it is doing something for muscle, which Proviron really does not, or not in any much-noticeable way anyway.

EDIT: I also now noticed your final question in the original post. There is no level of Proviron that corresponds to normal physiological. Even aside from the fact that normal levels of mesterolone are zero, there is no level of mesterolone that could be considered to directly correspond to a given level of either T or DHT due to its rather peculiar behavior of being a poor muscle anabolic while having good CNS effect.

8

461×566 50.3 KB

Well I for one, didn’t notice the skies parting and hear the boom of Bill Roberts impacting Earth and once again post on the steroid forum.

9

Actually I’ve been reading it every day but it seems like there’s been a stretch of “How do I cleanse my liver,” “How do I remove Synthol,” “I want to run an oral-only cycle,” and that sort of thing. Or where posts had questions capable of good answers, these were being ably provided already.

10

Bill your answer is much appreciated and I suppose I am looking for a golden bullet that does not (yet) exist. I have posted one of the abstracts below - I have others if it is of interest?

The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George’s Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

11

Thanks!

I will try to remember to find the full text of this article next time I am at UF. What I’m particularly interested to see is how this 100-150 mg/day was administered. For example, perhaps this was administered 1x/day while the study finding suppression at 50 mg/day was administered 2x/day, as a possible means of explaining the discrepancy in findings.

The outcome would be interesting and valuable either way.

If 1x/day, then this study indicates that if one does want to use mesterolone, it can be used that way without much suppression (though possibly only if taking at the same time as done in the study, which may not be stated but a doctor who has been involved in several studies tells me that the typical practice is morning dosing if there is no mention given. Not as a surefire conclusion, but likely to be the case.)

Or if multiple times per day, then this study indicates suppressive effect is less than had been shown in the earlier study and than I had stated.

12

For those who may have an interest

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6.
Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.
Szöllösi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

Andrologia. 1978 Jul-Aug;10(4):299-306.
The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH.
Nikkanen V.

42 subfertile male ambulatory patients were treated with Proviron. Moderate oligoastheno-teratozoospermia was the most common injury in sperm analysis. The treatment did not change the amount of plasma FSH, testosterone or prostate phosphatase. Acid phosphatase and citric acid of semen showed an increased activity with mesterolone treatment. The amount of fructose decreased, it is probably due to the increased number of spermatozoa, which need more fructose for their metabolism respectively. The sperm of 93% of the patients improved or stayed unchanged. 30% of the patients developed normozoospermia. 6 pregnancies were achieved

Andrologia. 1979 Jan;11(1):33-6.
Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone.
Nikkanen V.

There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in order to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.

13

A question regarding proviron and shutdown.

If you maintain sexual function on proviron can you assume you are not completely suppressed? If you were where would the estrogen come from?

14

Well, I wouldn’t be surprised if the differing factor is manner of dosing. There was a study in The Lancet showing 50 mg of Dianabol given once per day yielding no significant suppression of LH, which is not the same result as when dosing is divided.

But the abstracts don’t give this information: the full text probably does.

It isn’t at all unlikely that these studies were single dosing. It is greatly preferable or usually insisted on in a study that the patient be observed actually taking the drug, rather than simply giving them a supply of the drug to take home with them. Add in the fact that mesterolone is a controlled substance and it is very likely that the subjects physically presented themselves for the dosing.

And obviously that is far more practical once per day. And since it’s desirable for all subjects to dose at approximately the same time per day as timing can yield different results, as it happens the morning is the most practical time at which all participants can show up. So, if the dosing was once per day, it’s very likely (though not an absolutely certain deduction) that it was morning dosing.

On maintaining sex drive while using Proviron: Yes, for the estrogen reason you state, this would mean that LH production was not abolished, but it wouldn’t necessarily rule out being rather heavily suppressed.

E.g., if one’s normal estrogen level is 2 or more times higher than the bottom end of the normal range, one could be suppressed by 50% or more but not suffer libido problems from reduced estrogen.

15

Bill - thanks for your help.

As I knew deep down all along - I have tow options - give up AS cycles or keep suffering some big downers during recovery.

I think if I do keep cycling I will change from the 6-8 week options to the 12 week options. Less carp times to go through for - even if I do only 1 per year

17

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Cymru wrote:
Bill - thanks for your help.

As I knew deep down all along - I have tow options - give up AS cycles or keep suffering some big downers during recovery.

I think if I do keep cycling I will change from the 6-8 week options to the 12 week options. Less carp times to go through for - even if I do only 1 per year[/quote]

I think you have a 3rd option - change the way you end your cycles.

I guess I didn’t manage to convince you that the stasis-taper method really worked, despite your (I thought) success with it following your last poor recovery.

BBB

Actually, now that I think of it, there is a 4th option: TRT/cycles, AKA ‘blast and cruise’.[/quote]

Hey BBB,

It did work mate - but I am trying to bullet proof myself!!!

I am not sure I could ever go through what I went through this year again. I am looking for options should I decide to cycle and the stasis - taper does not work next time. I am confident it is good and it gave me a good - almost seamless recovery (I had a little bleep for a week or so but more than dealable) but I am worried that with advancing age it may not always do so

regards

18

What does your current PCT look like?

20

I think if you are using HcG on cycle, using a combo of low dose (<100mg) test, aromasin, and a SERM, and are STILL having a poor recovery you should re-address how you use AAS, either blast cruise/HRT or stop completely. Just my opinion/experience from someone who use to have a very difficult time with recovery, though.