T Nation

Experience from Every 3.5 Days to EOD

Hello, recently about 5 weeks ago i decided to change protocol from twice per week to EOD, mostly for E2 management with out an AI, right off the bat i can say i am holding a lot less water i even lost 3 or 4 pounds which i´m assuming is all water, no more swollen ankles after a long day of work no more puffy nipples and i haven´t touched an AI in several weeks now i feel i don´t need one so over all experince is good.
When i was pinning only twice per week my weight fluctuated a lot through out the day and i was holding a lot of water.
Now my question is i used to pin 120 mg splitted into 2 shots now i take 30 mg for example mon, wed, fri, sun, but then the next week would be 30 mg only tus, thurs and sat which would only be 90 mg on that week, my question is can i use 40 mg per shot the week i only pin 3 times (tus,thurs,sat) so i still get 120 mg of test??

You are overthinking it. For EOD just take the amount, divide by 2 and then multiply by 7. 30mg EOD is 105mg per week. Since you moved to EOD instead of every 3.5 days this might be sufficient to keep the same levels you had at 120mg every 3.5 days. You could always bump it up to 34mg EOD which would be 119mg per week.

Ok thanks man, never thought of it that way, i´ll try that

So your serum levels are more stable, due to more frequent injections, yet you believe your issues were somehow caused by estradiol? No, it doesn’t work that way. You can test this by raising your dose over time, which will raise estradiol further, yet you still won’t have any of those ‘high E2 issues’. Funny how that works?

Finding a weekly dose and frequency of injection that works best if you should be your only concern. Estradiol is irrelevant.

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No, thanks for your reply, i left a cooment in one of your videos stating exactly what you are saying right now that due to more frequent injections i feel those type of symthoms are now gone, i even lost weight even if i eat more i still look a lot less bloated, indeed this works, thanks a lot man for the insightful info, my goal was also stop using AI but doing twice per week injections i was still holding a lot of water and using microdose of AI was the only way of mitigating that, i´m off any AI for several weeks now and feel great.

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Your dogma makes the assumption that measured E2 serum levels are a canonical reference point for estrogenic activity within the body. I don’t think this is a reasonable assumption to make.

I’m not surprised at all that his experience also aligns with the experience many people have when taking AI or otherwise flattening curves for androgens, including E2. At “blast” levels of testosterone, these swings become much more pronounced, and the impact of AI much more obvious upon administration. Water weight begins to plummet within about 8 hours, blood pressure drops, skin flushing abates, emotions/mood changes occur, and libido changes, as does the sensitivity of erogenous zones.

It’s not unreasonable for @lukedorian to theorize that less estrogenic activity is occurring due to more stable serum levels of testosterone, and therefore bloat in the form of water is decreasing in much the same way it would after administration of an AI.

I agree that serum levels don’t drive tissue action. It’s been discussed a million times. I use this as an example because men believe it does, when it doesn’t. I’m not sure how you establish this as being ‘my dogma’ as if I hired a bunch of researchers to run biased studies.

Have you read the Estradiol as a Male paper?

Or how about The Role of Estradiol in Male Reproductive Function?:
“The role of estradiol in male reproductive function” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854098/

Or… How about the 20+ other papers I’ve posted on the subject not written by me? How is it possible that we have we all these men getting off their AI and getting better with this guy being yet another example?

Estradiol is now being viewed as a paracrine hormone in men. Serum levels will be inherently meaningless.

I also don’t understand why the blasting example always gets used. We are striving for health here. I’ve known men who have taken over a gram a week of test with no AI and felt perfectly fine as well as men on 600 with an AI who felt like shit. It’s irrelevent.

The vast majority of men do NOT need an AI and lowering it in the men who don’t becomes detrimental to their health as demonstrated by the literature. I’d be happy to provide a ton more if you wish. Not to mention, we are seeing this demonstrated in real life 10+ times a day… Every day.

If this was ‘dogma’, it would be rather clear it was inaccurate, we’d be seeing way too many exceptions to the rule and wouldn’t be saying this. Explain what value any bias would have for me and why I’d be telling anyone this publicly if it was demonstrably false? I keep asking this question and never get a clear answer from anyone.

Hi Danny,

I know from your videos that you are on 200mg per week and doing EOD. I’m on the same but doing twice a week. I would like to switch to EOD. How does the scheduling work? First week 4 days second week 3 days? And how do you divide you’re dose per injection?

Thank you.

I don’t think we’re having the same conversation. My remarks were mainly restricted to the scope of the correlation of estrogenic activity to water retention. I don’t have an established opinion as it relates to the overall recommendation for or against AI usage.

It seems to me that many men don’t, in fact, need an AI. There is also ample evidence to suggest AI usage can be very detrimental to everything from cardiovascular health to neurotoxicity (specifically neuronal excitotoxicity). Again, I wasn’t making any claim outside of the scope of water retention, which was the complaint at hand.

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Danny was the one who convinced me to switch from every 3.5 days, to eod.

Take the weekly dose and divide it by the injections per week.

With eod, that’s 3.5 per week.
200mg per week/3.5=57mg per injection. If your testosterone is 200mg/ml, then that’s .28 ml per injection.

My apologies for misunderstanding. Something else I’ve seen regarding water retention specifically is men reporting it claiming high E2. They then use a mild OTC diuretic which helps to flush the excess water and then it typically doesn’t return. Yet, their protocol remains unchanged nor do serum levels. I always recommend this strategy before ever considering an AI, especially for something as easily rectified as water retention.

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So is the second week a 3 day injection week and the 200mg is divided by 3?

At 500mg/wk, I can watch my water retention and blood pressure change dramatically inside of about 36 hours as I increase or decrease arimidex between zero and 0.125mg-0.25mg EOD. When I get back to cruise in a couple months, I’m going to take the test all the way down to 130mg and dose it the same EOD without any AI. There’s no way I’m taking AI long term, and I’ll definitely go for something like dandelion if I get any swelling at first. Thanks for the tip.

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200 x 2 (wks) = 400mg
400 / 7 (injections) = 57.14mg
57.14 / 200 (mg/mL) = 0.2857mL per injection

M,W,F,Sun,Tu,Th,Sat = avg 3.5 injections per week

Sorry I missed your comment. If you are injecting every other day you simply divide your weekly dose by 3.5 and then simply inject that amount every second day. It’s that simple.

Thanks Danny and to all

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