Wow, alot of this thread is just bullshit.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy![/quote]
x2
[quote]Lorne wrote:
Hi,
I’d appreciate feedback, please.
I normally do my bicep curls, reverse curls, shoulder presses from a standing position, as I understand that standing is much better to the back than doing the exercises sitting. While one may be able to lift more by sitting, my question is am I correct that performing these exercises while standing is better for the back, and ultimately for core stability?
Thank you.[/quote]
Are your biceps and shoulder growing well training like this (standing variations)? Are your abs popping and looking awesome and ripped? If so, then why worry about how you do it?
But oh, that magic word, ‘core stability’…sure, doing exercises standing up, especially shoulder raise movements will impart a torque on the spine that you will have to control with abdominal/lumbar contraction, but whether or not this particular stimulus is enough for an abdominal training effect is doubtful.
Just do a good variety of exercises using standing and seated techniques, and don’t worry. If you want specific ab work, then do specific ab work. If you want to get into a detailed discussion on what ‘core stability’ is, then continue…
Both standing & seated exercise variations have their place in the context of bodybuilding but for me in terms of building strength & moving the most weight I stick with standing movements.
It depends on the exercise of course but I have eschewed seated shoulder press for standing BB press & I’m sure there will be some strength transfer when I go back to seated shoulder DB press (fingers crossed)
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
colinphenom wrote:
My mistake, I read your post as compress and not decompress. And you got me it was a half ass response…
I am still a bit confused however, you said:
“If doing things standing led to lesser degrees of spinal compression…then why do you see Olympic Weightlifter doing specific exercises to decompress the spine?”
Wouldn’t this become important for anyone doing heavy lifting not only olympic lifters, and be even more imporant to those that do seated presses vs. standing?
Why do Olympic lifters, who do next to zero seated lifts need to decompress their spines if performing your lifts while standing compresses the spine to a lesser degree?
Interesting to note that this is next to unheard of in lifters who do more seated lifting. If your logic held true, then this should be the other way around, no?[/quote]
All lifting compresses the spine to some degree. Heck, getting out of bed in the morning and walking around compresses it. But sitting compresses it more than standing, as measured by Stuart McGill.
I have 4 injured discs that have lost height. If I do something to excessively compress one of those, especially the lumbar ones, I feel it. Core function is also impaired in people with such injuries. So focusing on neutral lumbar position, tight abs and glutes, tight, retracted scapulae on every rep has been critical for me to be able to lift without pain. I have stuck with standing presses and kneeling lateral raises because if I contract my glutes while standing, my spine is much more stable, and I can then lift more weight without triggering back pain. I may experiment with seated movements in the future, but this is what has worked for me so far.
[quote]andersons wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
colinphenom wrote:
My mistake, I read your post as compress and not decompress. And you got me it was a half ass response…
I am still a bit confused however, you said:
“If doing things standing led to lesser degrees of spinal compression…then why do you see Olympic Weightlifter doing specific exercises to decompress the spine?”
Wouldn’t this become important for anyone doing heavy lifting not only olympic lifters, and be even more imporant to those that do seated presses vs. standing?
Why do Olympic lifters, who do next to zero seated lifts need to decompress their spines if performing your lifts while standing compresses the spine to a lesser degree?
Interesting to note that this is next to unheard of in lifters who do more seated lifting. If your logic held true, then this should be the other way around, no?
All lifting compresses the spine to some degree. Heck, getting out of bed in the morning and walking around compresses it. But sitting compresses it more than standing, as measured by Stuart McGill.
I have 4 injured discs that have lost height. If I do something to excessively compress one of those, especially the lumbar ones, I feel it. Core function is also impaired in people with such injuries. So focusing on neutral lumbar position, tight abs and glutes, tight, retracted scapulae on every rep has been critical for me to be able to lift without pain. I have stuck with standing presses and kneeling lateral raises because if I contract my glutes while standing, my spine is much more stable, and I can then lift more weight without triggering back pain. I may experiment with seated movements in the future, but this is what has worked for me so far. [/quote]
You have a pre-existing condition. You are the person that the article that keeps being referenced is addressing. The average healthy lifter though, does not have a pre-existing condition and is just fine doing seated presses, which I personally believe to be the superior lift for bodybuilders.
Some author says “Unless you are injured, seated presses are fine” and everyone gets their internet PhD. hats on and starts talking about how, since seated presses are bad for backs that aren’t healthy, they must also be bad for backs that are healthy.
Just a side note though, I am able to keep a neutral spine and tight abs, glutes, and scap. with seated presses. Maybe that’s just the powerlifter in me, but I don’t do any lift where I don’t get tight first. Sure people might get injured by flopping around like a tube sock while doing seated presses, but those people don’t know how to lift weights in the first place so they aren’t really a part of this discussion.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy![/quote]
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.
[quote]Artem wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy!
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.[/quote]
How many “serious powerlifters” do you know or are you basing that off of the fact that Dave Tate had a lot of injuries?
I haven’t met a “serious powerlifter” yet who has ever gotten injured from box squatting correctly.
One can obviously use more weight on a shoulder press while seated.
Can you really picture yourself doing standing presses with over 250lbs without an arch in your back so extreme that it turns the exercise into a standing incline press? Not to mention the difficulty and risk factor of trying to get dumbbells that weigh over 100lbs into position for a standing shoulder press.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy!
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.
How many “serious powerlifters” do you know or are you basing that off of the fact that Dave Tate had a lot of injuries?
I haven’t met a “serious powerlifter” yet who has ever gotten injured from box squatting correctly.[/quote]
Getting injured doesn’t always happen in an instant. It’s often a gradual process.
[quote]Artem wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy!
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.
How many “serious powerlifters” do you know or are you basing that off of the fact that Dave Tate had a lot of injuries?
I haven’t met a “serious powerlifter” yet who has ever gotten injured from box squatting correctly.
Getting injured doesn’t always happen in an instant. It’s often a gradual process.
[/quote]
You still failed to answer my question.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy!
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.
How many “serious powerlifters” do you know or are you basing that off of the fact that Dave Tate had a lot of injuries?
I haven’t met a “serious powerlifter” yet who has ever gotten injured from box squatting correctly.
Getting injured doesn’t always happen in an instant. It’s often a gradual process.
You still failed to answer my question.[/quote]
Your question was very specific and unimportant, when I was trying to make a general point.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
andersons wrote:
All lifting compresses the spine to some degree. Heck, getting out of bed in the morning and walking around compresses it. But sitting compresses it more than standing, as measured by Stuart McGill.
I have 4 injured discs that have lost height. If I do something to excessively compress one of those, especially the lumbar ones, I feel it. Core function is also impaired in people with such injuries. So focusing on neutral lumbar position, tight abs and glutes, tight, retracted scapulae on every rep has been critical for me to be able to lift without pain. I have stuck with standing presses and kneeling lateral raises because if I contract my glutes while standing, my spine is much more stable, and I can then lift more weight without triggering back pain. I may experiment with seated movements in the future, but this is what has worked for me so far.
You have a pre-existing condition. You are the person that the article that keeps being referenced is addressing. The average healthy lifter though, does not have a pre-existing condition and is just fine doing seated presses, which I personally believe to be the superior lift for bodybuilders.
Some author says “Unless you are injured, seated presses are fine” and everyone gets their internet PhD. hats on and starts talking about how, since seated presses are bad for backs that aren’t healthy, they must also be bad for backs that are healthy.
Just a side note though, I am able to keep a neutral spine and tight abs, glutes, and scap. with seated presses. Maybe that’s just the powerlifter in me, but I don’t do any lift where I don’t get tight first. Sure people might get injured by flopping around like a tube sock while doing seated presses, but those people don’t know how to lift weights in the first place so they aren’t really a part of this discussion.[/quote]
I gave myself my “preexisting condition” through lifting mistakes when I didn’t know any better. I try to help others avoid the same mistakes as much as possible. I assume that a person asking a question like the one in the original post may have a back that’s bothering him. And I don’t assume that everyone automatically knows how to stay tight. We have a lot of relatively inexperienced people reading and posting on this forum and trying to learn. And hardly a week goes by where we don’t get threads mentioning back pain issues, what deadlifts are best for a bad back, etc.
That said, I don’t think seated versus standing presses are a big factor in causing back problems or making them worse. The greatest problems are caused by deadlifts, squats, or leg presses where the lifter’s lumbar spine goes into flexion at some point during the movement, usually the bottom.
I can stay tight and contract glutes in a seated position also, but it does not feel the same to my back, for what it’s worth. This may mean I have some more hip issues to work out, I don’t know.
My point is, each lifter needs to choose movements and prehab/structural balance stuff in his training in order to protect his back. If your back is starting to bother you, you do need to worry about stuff like this. If you’ve been lifting forever, built up a strong and stable base of core stability, never had any back issues, know what you’re doing, and have good technique – carry on.
[quote]Artem wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy!
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.
How many “serious powerlifters” do you know or are you basing that off of the fact that Dave Tate had a lot of injuries?
I haven’t met a “serious powerlifter” yet who has ever gotten injured from box squatting correctly.
Getting injured doesn’t always happen in an instant. It’s often a gradual process.
You still failed to answer my question.
Your question was very specific and unimportant, when I was trying to make a general point.[/quote]
My question related specifically to your qualification to make that general point. If you don’t actually know any fucking powerlifters, then you can’t make a general statement about powerlifters now can you?
[quote]andersons wrote:
My point is, each lifter needs to choose movements and prehab/structural balance stuff in his training in order to protect his back. If your back is starting to bother you, you do need to worry about stuff like this. If you’ve been lifting forever, built up a strong and stable base of core stability, never had any back issues, know what you’re doing, and have good technique – carry on.[/quote]
Totally agree.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Artem wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Wait, so people are concerned with injuries doing stuff like seated curls or DB press, but powerlifters are doing 700+ pound box squats and are completely fine.
Don’t be a nervous nancy!
I agree with you, but a lot of serious powerlifters are far from fine.
How many “serious powerlifters” do you know or are you basing that off of the fact that Dave Tate had a lot of injuries?
I haven’t met a “serious powerlifter” yet who has ever gotten injured from box squatting correctly.
Getting injured doesn’t always happen in an instant. It’s often a gradual process.
You still failed to answer my question.
Your question was very specific and unimportant, when I was trying to make a general point.
My question related specifically to your qualification to make that general point. If you don’t actually know any fucking powerlifters, then you can’t make a general statement about powerlifters now can you?[/quote]
Sure I can.
The only exercise I do seated is DB shoulder press and I’ve had no problems with it… Thus far.
Artem, you are about as qualified to make generalizations about powerlifters and their patterns of injury as you are to give advice on how to not gain 80 lbs of fat in a year.
How many here are actually able to overhead press enough weight to give their back trouble…
Generally, we do seated overhead work on a high incline (a notch/hole or maybe even two below vertical) in bodybuilding…
I don’t see how you could manage to cause injury to your lower back on a high incline smith OHP or seated high incline DB OHP… Unless you were to really mess up your setup and technique. And if your setup and technique suck, then chances are you’ll never be pressing all that much overhead in the first place.
[quote]andersons wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Just a side note though, I am able to keep a neutral spine and tight abs, glutes, and scap. with seated presses. Maybe that’s just the powerlifter in me[/quote] No, that’s the same way I do them and I’m certainly not a powerlifter. I don’t see how anyone could move 300+ for reps overhead without murdering his shoulders unless he were to get tight first. [quote], but I don’t do any lift where I don’t get tight first. Sure people might get injured by flopping around like a tube sock while doing seated presses, but those people don’t know how to lift weights in the first place so they aren’t really a part of this discussion.
I gave myself my “preexisting condition” through lifting mistakes when I didn’t know any better. I try to help others avoid the same mistakes as much as possible. I assume that a person asking a question like the one in the original post may have a back that’s bothering him. And I don’t assume that everyone automatically knows how to stay tight[/quote] Yet that is the key to staying injury free while getting very strong. [quote]. We have a lot of relatively inexperienced people reading and posting on this forum and trying to learn. And hardly a week goes by where we don’t get threads mentioning back pain issues, what deadlifts are best for a bad back, etc.
That said, I don’t think seated versus standing presses are a big factor in causing back problems or making them worse. The greatest problems are caused by deadlifts, squats, or leg presses where the lifter’s lumbar spine goes into flexion at some point during the movement, usually the bottom.[/quote] Well, if your end up with a rounded low-back while leg-pressing, then the problem is… You.
Your low-back is not supposed to round on any of those exercises… Ever. Neither are you supposed to end up putting a lot of pressure on your low-back during a seated overhead press… Or overarch so badly that it hurts etc…
But really, can’t people use some common sense here? If it hurts in the wrong places, don’t do it?
I mean, other than the vets mentioning such things every other post and article…
It’s the same with the smith machine. People blame it on their injuries while it’s really them who are too stupid to use the machine properly… Or too dumb to abandon an exercise(or alter their technique on it) which hurts them.[quote]
I can stay tight and contract glutes in a seated position also, but it does not feel the same to my back, for what it’s worth. This may mean I have some more hip issues to work out, I don’t know.
[/quote] Stretching the hams and so on is an integral part of training for anyone who has flexibility issues on deadlifts and whatnot… So yeah. [quote]
My point is, each lifter needs to choose movements and prehab/structural balance stuff in his training in order to protect his back. If your back is starting to bother you, you do need to worry about stuff like this. If you’ve been lifting forever, built up a strong and stable base of core stability, never had any back issues, know what you’re doing, and have good technique – carry on.[/quote]