The only thing wrong with my front squat form is the way I have to rack the bar with my elbows pointing down is a little less stable and there’s a tendency to press out of the squat instead of using all legs. I have the Flexibility to rack it properly but I just don’t feel as comfortable and safe.
[quote]chrono wrote:
[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:
Can you post a couple videos of what your squats look like when they fall apart? Font, back, and side views would all provide different information. A photograph of resting posture from the side and back may also be useful. [/quote]
I don’t need a form check. I’ve been squatting bodyweight and with Dumbbells consistently for a long time. I use my glutes on the way up, inhale on the way down, neutral spine vertical, go below horizontal, I can pause and stay there in isometric hold with a low weight on the bar and keep my body upright and spine neutral and abs tight and when I exhale and push up with my quads I engage my glutes and even my hamstrings. Everything is tight and fine until I go down low with heavy barbell and the pelvic hinge angle is so small it starts to hurt the femur ball socket on the left side and my legs go wobbly. It’s my hip strength. It’s a group called the deep six that stabilise the pelvis and the extensors that open the hip at the hinge angle of the thighs as you push up into the eccentric phase and stand up.
I just wanted to know what exercises besides the ones listed can strengthen these muscles because the stronger they are the heavier and lower below parallel I can go. The acute angle of the hip hinge in sub-parallel squatting Puts huge shear forces on the pelvis. I need to squat deep in order to train my legs properly so I need to build up my hip strength to stabilise my pelvis when I squat deep.
The hip belt squat is a cheat though because it doesn’t require the core strength and hip strength to squat deep and heavy. There’s an old T-Nation article about them here -
I’m only going to use it to Deload and back off from real squats if I can do them heavy. Hip belt squats are not a substitute for the real thing but they appear to be a very useful tool in the arsenal. I’m glad I remembered them and was reminded. I don’t hear about them much.
[/quote]
Whats with the attitude? I didn’t say you needed a form check, I asked for a video so I could see what was actually happening when your legs “go wobbly” – so I could offer you the help that you asked for, no less. It sounds to me like you you’re barking up the wrong tree, but so be it. You seem much more interested in talking about how much you know about anatomy and biomechanics (hint: its not as much as you think) than actually getting help. Good luck.
Barbell hip thrusts don’t train the same motion as seated Good Mornings. Standing Good Mornings don’t, either. Each lift has a different joint angle in relation to the load vector, which seated GM’s emulate best. There is no other lift that will target the glutes with a significant amount of weight at that joint angle (other than squats).
Glutes Bridges don’t train hip hinge flexion, anyhow, and you don’t have a hip flexor weakness that’s affecting your squat. What you’re referring to is hip extension and hip extensor weakness. The hip flexors do not factor into the squat.
If everything is fine until you get low, and then the joint itself hurts, causing your knees to buckle, you have a mobility problem, not a muscular imbalance. Again here, a video would be very helpful, because your stance may be the key to the issue.
Weak VMO’s is not a thing. Weak VM’s are. I have never seen anyone with impressive quads that was lacking in the VMO’s.
And finally, if you think you’re so well informed that you’re going to throw any and all suggestions out the window because you know best, then why’d you ask for help? I would suggest that you actually educate yourself rather than parroting other people who may or may not actually understand what they’re talking about.
You came here because the things you’ve tried haven’t worked for you.
You presented with certain symptoms. You self-diagnosed yourself. Then you treated yourself via whatever exercises.
Which is fine, if all that worked. But it hasn’t.
So either 1) you’re using the wrong treatment, and/or 2) you misdiagnosed yourself.
You’ve invested so much time in this idea that you actually know what’s wrong with you, but how has that panned out? If you were “fixed”, that knowledge is validated… but you’re not “fixed”. Maybe it’s time to question the stuff you think you know. Maybe you’re looking at your issues wrong.
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Here’s an example.
Lots of lifters suffer from shoulder issues at one time or another. Because of a bunch of bad information, many people say the problem is “a weak rotator cuff”. Well, I mean, the obvious solution is to strengthen the rotator cuff then, right? So some people do YTWLs and get better, and spread the news. But other people do YTWLs, and nothing happens.
So here’s the fun thing that happens. Of those people who did YTWLs and didn’t get any better… they still assume they have a “weak rotator cuff”. So they find all sorts of other, more creative, more interesting ways to strengthen the rotator cuff. But their issue doesn’t go away. So they look even further, try even more crazy things. They’ve invested so much time and effort that these muscles are so huge you can even see them pop out as they walk down the street.
But, they still have shoulder issues.
So they ask for help. And someone suggests that “hey, maybe you should do more front squats, especially pin or pause variations”. And they think that person can’t be serious. I mean, the problem is clearly weak rotator cuff muscles, what would front squats have anything to do with it? So the advice gets ignored.
But then they’re at their wits end, and for whatever reason, they actually try some front squats. And things get better. And they do more front squats, and things get even better.
Because the problem was never “weak rotator cuffs”, but was actually “poor cervical and thoracic positioning”, which, once fixed, eliminated the impingements and finally let the tendons heal.
Lots of time was wasted solving the wrong problem, because they didn’t question their own knowledge and realize the diagnosis was wrong.
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I get that you’re in pain and frustrated, and I get that you’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure things out.
But when people suggest things, and you’re shutting down their ideas without even seriously considering them, it doesn’t look good. When TrevorLPT suggested taking a video… and I believe he is actually a licensed physical therapist (LPT)… and you snap at him, well, it doesn’t look good.
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Have you actually given pause squats a run for the money? Double/triple/whatever paused squats? Pin squats? Supramaximal holds? Slow supramaximal eccentrics to pins/blocks? Compensatory acceleration (CAT)?
Have you done anything to intentionally introduce instability… drop the load, but increase instability? (E.g., hanging weights off chains on each side of the bar, and/or used something like a bamboo bar and/or attached weights to bands off the bar)
Have you worked outside of the typical squat patterns, and done any loaded carry work? Farmers walks? Overhead walks? Zercher walks? Yoke walks? Sled drags? Sled/Prowler/Wheelbarrow pushes?
Instead of looking things framed in terms of “muscle weaknesses”, have you looked at it in terms of “how many different ways can I work this joint through it’s effective range of motion, using various angles, loads, tempos, intentional instability, acceleration/deceleration, etc.”?
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But that just addresses the exercise side of things. Have you been properly assessed for any degenerative hip disease by a doctor?
How is your diet? Is your nutrition and hydration ensuring that your connective tissue functions properly and well? Do you have any inflammation issues that could be addressed by dietary changes? More vegetables? More fats?
Have you given fish oil a serious trial? And I don’t mean in the popular health media sense, of just a tiny bit a day, but have you actually used 6+g a day for a long enough period to evaluate whether it made a difference? For lifting-related purposes, I’ve seen recommendations as high as 30g a day, but for practical purposes, 6g seems to be a good starting point.
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There’s a bunch of ideas. Maybe you’ll find one or more of them works for you.
Are you keeping tension in your abs, erectors, hip flexors and glutes throughout the entire range of motion of each given movement? What’s the point of going so deep if you can’t keep those muscles engaged? Strengthening muscles through isolation work doesn’t guarantee you are maximally contracting them in a full kinetic chain movement - this can be said about variations of the lift as well. A weakness or lack of muscle recruitment anywhere in the kinetic chain can cause power leakage or instability that runs into another area and that’s often why a problem can be misdiagnosed. A lot of people have given good advice so it would be useful to consider it.
What’s with the hesitation to provide a video? Doing a body weight squat vs 90+% are entirely different. The latter requires significant stabilization to maintain control over bar path and body movement. It shouldn’t hurt to provide a video if your main goal is to fix your problem and squat heavy without issue. Also, it’s useful to leave your ego at the door when stepping into a gym or asking for help.
Not in my case. My bone density is so low(advanced osteoporosis) that my femurs, tibias and pelvis are extremely weak. I’ve already fractures both tibias. There’s a lot of stuff you guys don’t know. Like my circumstances. I figured I’d be unlikely to get advice on squatting heavy if I mentioned my pelvis might fracture in the process. My specialists and the physio thought I was crazy when I told them what exercises I’m doing and the volume. But weightlifting is the best way to retain and add bone density.
Another relevant thing you don’t know - A deadlift in 2011 caused vertebrae crush fractures. Then I brought my legs and lots of other bones. Then I found out why later - undiagnosed thyroid tumours. I’d been gaining lean muscle mass and losing strength while my thyroid hormone levels were through the roof. It went undiagnosed for ages because the usual symtoms like gaining fat and muscle wastage weren’t evident due to my consistent weightlifting.
I spent the first half of 2013 in wheelchair / bed and got hit hard with muscle wastage. I had to go through gruelly physio program(designed by me) for six months to get walking again. And as soon as I could stand I did bodyweight squats continuously for weeks then split squat etc. I retained lean mass, lost bodyfat and gained strength with record high thyroid hormone levels, severe bone density loss / osteoporosis, arthritis, chronic back pain and whilst being poisoned from extremely elevated blood calcium levels causing a host of unpleasant side effects including seizures, loss of consciousness, memory loss etc.
I pride myself on form. There’s nothing wrong with my form until the weak link in the chain - it used to be my back(form breakdown caused vertebrae crush fractures) but now it’s weak hips.
It’s pelvic instability that leads to pelic instability under load which puts the sort of shear forces on my pelvis that are likely to fracture it.
Thanks for some of the good ideas here but I don’t need any diagnoses. I know what’s wrong with me and why. I monitor my blood work regularly and after my next surgery to remove thyroid tumours I can expect a bone density increase of 10-12% average over the following years + a lot more if I lift weights heavy. Given I was lifting in the 4 x 1 of my one rep max with lower bone density than I have now I know I can get back to it safely. But there’s more stuff you guys don’t know so it’s not going to help to try to diagnose my problems. I’m just looking to focus on my hip strength.
Thanks
if you had posted this first you probably would have gotten alot better responses for your situation some of these people on this site really know their stuff
instead you come off sounding like a dip----
The problem here is that we are providing general ways to increase hip strength/engagement regardless of health condition but you keep saying that we can’t help because we don’t understand the health condition. We’re providing possible solutions regardless of what health condition is a factor. With that said, you should definitely work within the limits your doctor advises and I’m sure you’re already doing that.
We were trying to help you with technique because that is the problem when you’re going heavy. In a previous comment you said,
[quote]chrono wrote: I use my glutes on the way up, inhale on the way down, neutral spine vertical, go below horizontal, I can pause and stay there in isometric hold with a low weight on the bar and keep my body upright and spine neutral and abs tight and when I exhale and push up with my quads I engage my glutes and even my hamstrings."
[/quote]
This implies you don’t use your hamstrings and glutes throughout the range of motion. You keep reinforcing the notion of going deep as possible without considering why your muscles are affected by that increased range of motion and how your muscles affect your execution of the lift. We understand that you know a lot about muscle functions and your health but you may be lacking in technique which is why you have trouble with heavy weights. If technique weren’t an issue and only osteoporosis were, it would be likely that you would injure yourself by ripping tendons off your bones or pulling muscles because you’re able to force yourself to maintain great technique without any breakdown and would push your muscles/tendons to true failure.
If you want to increase bone density, wouldn’t heavy farmers walks help since they introduce large compressive stresses on your bones?
[quote]cavemansam wrote:
if you had posted this first you probably would have gotten alot better responses for your situation some of these people on this site really know their stuff
instead you come off sounding like a dip----[/quote]
I shouldn’t have to give my life story and upload videos of myself squatting from three angles just to diagnose the problem. Anyone who knows there stuff knows wobbly knees buckling inwards on squat = pelvic instability from weak hips. But there were some good replies and a few exercises mentioned I’m using.
[quote]lift206 wrote:
The problem here is that we are providing general ways to increase hip strength/engagement regardless of health condition but you keep saying that we can’t help because we don’t understand the health condition. We’re providing possible solutions regardless of what health condition is a factor. With that said, you should definitely work within the limits your doctor advises and I’m sure you’re already doing that.
We were trying to help you with technique because that is the problem when you’re going heavy. In a previous comment you said,
[quote]chrono wrote: I use my glutes on the way up, inhale on the way down, neutral spine vertical, go below horizontal, I can pause and stay there in isometric hold with a low weight on the bar and keep my body upright and spine neutral and abs tight and when I exhale and push up with my quads I engage my glutes and even my hamstrings."
[/quote]
This implies you don’t use your hamstrings and glutes throughout the range of motion. You keep reinforcing the notion of going deep as possible without considering why your muscles are affected by that increased range of motion and how your muscles affect your execution of the lift. We understand that you know a lot about muscle functions and your health but you may be lacking in technique which is why you have trouble with heavy weights. If technique weren’t an issue and only osteoporosis were, it would be likely that you would injure yourself by ripping tendons off your bones or pulling muscles because you’re able to force yourself to maintain great technique without any breakdown and would push your muscles/tendons to true failure.
If you want to increase bone density, wouldn’t heavy farmers walks help since they introduce large compressive stresses on your bones?
[/quote]
Yes farmers walks are good and I’ve been doing them along with other asymmetric stuff like suitcase Kettlebell deadlifts. These are probably one of my best bets along with resistance band clams I think.
I don’t really like to talk about private things like my health problems so that’s why I didn’t go into it. sorry for any confusion.
I keep my glutes contracted throughout the whole squat. I tense my glutes and hamstrings at the start along with my core - everything and then really fire them both as I stand up out of the squat.
But about the bone thing it’s core strength that protects my back from getting injured. Even though the spine bears load it’s protected by muscles keeping it in correct alignment. If I do the same with hips then that’s my big form problem fixed and I can work from there and look for more form problems but this one is key because hip strength will protect my pelvis in daily life and reduce the chance of fracture.
[quote]chrono wrote:
Anyone who knows there stuff knows wobbly knees buckling inwards on squat = pelvic instability from weak hips.
[/quote]
This is unequivocally, without a doubt, 100% untrue. There are a myriad of possible causes of valgus collapse at the knees during squatting. From a level 1 biomechanical perspective, yes, it is often a matter of weakness in the external rotators and/or abductors of the hips, especially relative to the adductors.
However it is also possible that the issue stems from improper or asymmetrical pelvic positioning, anterior glide of the femur or restrictions with the hip capsule, or even a larger pattern of compensation like a Left AIC dominance.
But you’re right: all you ever need to do to fix knee collapse is more banded clams and side-lying abductions. You got this.
[quote]chrono wrote:
Thanks for some of the good ideas here but I don’t need any diagnoses. I know what’s wrong with me and why.[/quote]
Then why haven’t you been able to fix them?
I do mean that as a genuine question.
[quote]chrono wrote:
I shouldn’t have to give my life story and upload videos of myself squatting from three angles just to diagnose the problem. Anyone who knows there stuff knows wobbly knees buckling inwards on squat = pelvic instability from weak hips. But there were some good replies and a few exercises mentioned I’m using.
[/quote]
Okay, thnx for the info, coach. brb doing band hip abductions and adding 40 pounds to my squat.
Knee caving happens because of other reasons than just weak hip abductors, it can also happen because you don’t have the mobility to comfortably keep them out in that range of motion, and if you aren’t loading your hamstrings and glutes (pushing your hips back) enough leaving you in a shitty situation to keep your hips out. It may also be happening because of your squat stance, you might be squatting too narrow, or you might be squatting far too wide.
You said you want to squat heavy, so you asked for advice on how to do that. Do you want to be able to squat heavy and safely, or do you want to have stronger hips?
A lot of this could’ve been prevented just by posting some pictures of you doing squats with 90+% of your max, some pictures of your posture, and some general information about your medical history.
What if someone asks “Hey, how do I get better at my deadlift” then forgets to mention that they’ve ruptured some discs in their back? No one can help them because they weren’t given proper information. It’s like going to a doctor then not telling him all of your symptoms then arguing with him over the diagnosis. I mean if you know so much, go ahead and keep doing what you are doing. I just have to wonder why such a genius must ask in the beginner’s forum for advice, you must be keeping us on our toes or something. 
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]chrono wrote:
Thanks for some of the good ideas here but I don’t need any diagnoses. I know what’s wrong with me and why.[/quote]
Then why haven’t you been able to fix them?
I do mean that as a genuine question.[/quote]
I guess I have to back LoRez on this one. Im curious OP why a person whom has obvious health issues is asking advice when it falls outside of the experience of 99% of the people on here. It just seems to me you need to find a qualified professional whom specializes in rehab working in hand with your physician. Your not talking about" hey I have been tweaking my quad what can I change in my squat form". Your mentioning the possibility of risking fracturing your pelvis due too your low bone density in one of your post. Again that falls out of the experience level of a large % of people on here even the ones that are pretty damn knowledgeable.
If you peruse the pharma section a bit, you may find a thread started by our OP about how he’s decided that steroids (specifically Deca), are the answer to his problems. His reception in that thread was about as warm as it has been here. Glad to see everyone’s on the same page.
Don’t worry guys. He’s got this. He just came here to tell everyone that.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
If you peruse the pharma section a bit, you may find a thread started by our OP about how he’s decided that steroids (specifically Deca), are the answer to his problems. His reception in that thread was about as warm as it has been here. Glad to see everyone’s on the same page.
Don’t worry guys. He’s got this. He just came here to tell everyone that.[/quote]
Looked into Pharma section…Yeah Flip, See what you mean. Seems like you and myself have a similar opinion regarding the OP should be dealing with medical professionals and not internet amateurs regarding his situation. Still not understanding why this was even posted in the Beginner section in the first place.