Don’t forget that if you go super-high protein and you are not building significant amounts of muscle, you are spiking your insulin because it just gets broken down and then you are negatively affecting you insulin sensitivity… but people on these forums don’t care about that too much
[quote]luddini wrote:
Don’t forget that if you go super-high protein and you are not building significant amounts of muscle, you are spiking your insulin because it just gets broken down and then you are negatively affecting you insulin sensitivity… but people on these forums don’t care about that too much
[/quote]
Can you cite this please?
Breaking down protein to glucose is highly inefficient. Unless your body was in a low glucose state there would be no reason for your body to break down protein to glucose to raise blood sugar. And even if it somehow did, it would take so much protein that it would be near impossible to note and significant rise in glucose. Hell, it’d be burning off that glucose to keep changing over the proteins.
Gluconeogensis (protein->glucose) is a function of low blood sugar not excess protein intake.
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
How many people know their kidney function? [/quote]
Better question, how many people are actually consuming so much protein that their bodies are at risk? Even if someone is getting 2gr per pound of bodyweight, who has this caused problems in? I agree completely that more people need regular checkups. I can guarantee there are more walking around with undiagnosed high blood pressure and diabetes than there are with unknown kidney problems aside from those where the hyertension and diabetes are what CAUSED the kidney problems.
[quote]
THere is potential for positive effects, did I say otherwise? Just becuase I said there was potential for negatives does not mean there are no positives.[/quote]
But nothing is proven as far as negative effects in healthy individuals, so why even imply otherwise? You will take the time to discuss “possible negatives”?
[quote]
Thats nice, you just sound like a normal bodybuilder.
If 1gram of X is ok, 5g of X will create awsomeness.[/quote]
Bullshit. If I ever heard of some kid (as has happened before) claiming that their protein intake is outrageous as they try to copy the intake of some bodybuilder 200lbs heavier than them, they would be told immediately that this was unnecesary. Too much of anything is unhealthy for you. 1.5gr per pound of bodyweight, as is often recommended, is NOT “too much”.
Now, let’s talk about the stats you listed. You claimed 11%. According to the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the number of those with physiological evidence of chronic kidney disease is 4.5%. That is much less than the stat you listed above. What was your source?
Mind you, in over 91,636 cases in America in 2001, hypertension was the contributing factor to the disease. Diabetes is the second on the list of contributing factors. That would indicate a very large amount of people who should be LESS concerned with their protein intake, and much more concerned about their overall health…as I would assume many who regularly train would stay above “average” in terms of overall health.
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
luddini wrote:
Don’t forget that if you go super-high protein and you are not building significant amounts of muscle, you are spiking your insulin because it just gets broken down and then you are negatively affecting you insulin sensitivity… but people on these forums don’t care about that too much
Can you cite this please?
Breaking down protein to glucose is highly inefficient. Unless your body was in a low glucose state there would be no reason for your body to break down protein to glucose to raise blood sugar. And even if it somehow did, it would take so much protein that it would be near impossible to note and significant rise in glucose. Hell, it’d be burning off that glucose to keep changing over the proteins.
Gluconeogensis (protein->glucose) is a function of low blood sugar not excess protein intake. [/quote]
Good post.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Better question, how many people are actually consuming so much protein that their bodies are at risk? Even if someone is getting 2gr per pound of bodyweight, who has this caused problems in? [/quote]
if all of the data is in < 0.9g/lb protein levels, who knows what 2g/lb is doing. Cant say its good or bad, its just ???. There is potential for goodness and potential for badness, but its a big ??? THere definately hasnt been anywhere near the level of research done in the area that there should be.
yes, and what if you are carrying multiple risk factors for kidney disease and eating a extremely high protein diet?
If we dont have information (other than anecdotes)and if too much of anything is unhealthy, how can you say it isnt too much?
What evidence is there that it isnt too much, if all of hte kidney data that we have to date on intakes much lower than 1.5g/lb protein?
[quote]Now, let’s talk about the stats you listed. You claimed 11%. According to the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the number of those with physiological evidence of chronic kidney disease is 4.5%. That is much less than the stat you listed above. What was your source?
Mind you, in over 91,636 cases in America in 2001, hypertension was the contributing factor to the disease. Diabetes is the second on the list of contributing factors. That would indicate a very large amount of people who should be LESS concerned with their protein intake, and much more concerned about their overall health…as I would assume many who regularly train would stay above “average” in terms of overall health.
[/quote]
I read the wrong part of the article, it was 11% in 1988-1994 NHANES, 12% in the current (1999-2000).
The K/DOQI (Am J Kidney Dis 2003;39(suppl2):S1-S266) use info from the NHANES III dataset (also presented Am J Kidney Dis 2003;41:1-12), but they dont include all of physiological markers in their prevalence calculations.
(they use mod/severely lowered GFR where as the data presented from NHANES IV (J Am Soc Nephrol 2005;16:180-188) uses ACR (which may or may not be a great population marker)).
Both “Am J Kidney Dis 2003;41:1-12” and J Am Soc Nephrol 2005;16:180-188" use ACR as their prevalence marker for CKD.
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
Can you cite this please?
Breaking down protein to glucose is highly inefficient. Unless your body was in a low glucose state there would be no reason for your body to break down protein to glucose to raise blood sugar. And even if it somehow did, it would take so much protein that it would be near impossible to note and significant rise in glucose. Hell, it’d be burning off that glucose to keep changing over the proteins.
Gluconeogensis (protein->glucose) is a function of low blood sugar not excess protein intake. [/quote]
Strangely enough, high levels of amino acids are associated with a decrease in insulin sensitivity.
I will see if I can hunt down the reference.
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
if all of the data is in < 0.9g/lb protein levels, who knows what 2g/lb is doing. Cant say its good or bad, its just ???. There is potential for goodness and potential for badness, but its a big ??? THere definately hasnt been anywhere near the level of research done in the area that there should be.[/quote]
So, am I to assume that you put the same caution into consuming other products? There haven’t been specific studies done on long term coffee consumption directly. That doesn’t mean we can’t come to conclusions based on the many who partake in such activity for years on end. High protein bodybuilding diets are not new. Bodybuilders have been eating this was since the 50’s…yet this isn’t long enough for you?
[quote]
yes, and what if you are carrying multiple risk factors for kidney disease and eating a extremely high protein diet? [/quote]
Then those risk factors become what causes the disease, not high protein. High protein didn’t cause high blood pressure and is not a risk factor in kidney disease. The point is, the leading causes of kidney problems involve lack of health predominantly in populations who are not worried about their health.
Controlled hypertension would not lead to kidney failure. That means that what we know for sure is that people need regular checkups and to control diseases like hypertension and diabetes…not sit there and accuse protein as helping when not one study would lead us to this conclusion.
[quote]
If we dont have information (other than anecdotes)and if too much of anything is unhealthy, how can you say it isnt too much? [/quote]
Have you missed the last 50 years of bodybuilding? I have a work up yearly and my protein intake is high and there is nothing wrong with me. Your worry about a possibility isn’t logical unless you hold this same bias for everything you eat or do. Something tells me that you think of this very little when it comes to your consumption of several other items.
We know that too much water could actually kill you. However, the amount is more than any rational person would normally be able to consume. If 2gr per pound of body weight were dangerous, don’t you think there would be more people turning up in hospitals as a direct cause of high protein intake? After over half a century?
You can choose to worry for the next 50 years whether it “could” have an effect if you want to. Nothing is point to that in healthy individuals.
[quote]
What evidence is there that it isnt too much, if all of hte kidney data that we have to date on intakes much lower than 1.5g/lb protein?[/quote]
Too much for what? We don’t have any evidence that those who take in high protein are at risk of anything so why, again, are you so concerned?
Are you looking at chronic kidney disease or simply grouping every possible kidney disorder? You do realize that doing the latter would not be relevant? The amount of those with chronic kidney disorders judged by moderately or severely reduced glomerular filtration rate was 4.5% in 1988-1994, not the number you are quoting from:
K/DOQI Clinical Practice Guidelines for Chronic Kidney Disease: Evaluation, Classification, and Stratification. American Journal of Kidney Disease. 2002;39(2, Suppl. 1):S1-S266.
You can’t take studies done with sick people (abnormal kidney function) and then assume the same rules apply to healthy people.
The whole kidney and protein issue appears to have arisen from this type of thing.
Now, every time someone writes about protein consumption, they feel the need to raise the issue just to be cautious, even though no association has ever been found or shown in healthy individuals.
It’s unfortunate.
So, I guess it’s possible you could eat any substance to the point of exploding your stomach and dying, but that doesn’t mean it, that substance, is dangerous or bad for you in any realistic way.
I don’t understand the need for such fear mongering.
[quote]vroom wrote:
You can’t take studies done with sick people (abnormal kidney function) and then assume the same rules apply to healthy people.
The whole kidney and protein issue appears to have arisen from this type of thing.
Now, every time someone writes about protein consumption, they feel the need to raise the issue just to be cautious, even though no association has ever been found or shown in healthy individuals.
It’s unfortunate.
So, I guess it’s possible you could eat any substance to the point of exploding your stomach and dying, but that doesn’t mean it, that substances, is dangerous or bad for you in any realistic way.
I don’t understand the need for such fear mongering.[/quote]
Good post. Agree 100%
[quote]vroom wrote:
I don’t understand the need for such fear mongering.[/quote]
Who is fear mongering?
Or maybe you dont understnad what I am acutally saying?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, am I to assume that you put the same caution into consuming other products? [/quote]
Where did I say about caution?
So?
Nice controlled experiment.
Really? i didnt know that at all
Once again, nice controlled experiment.
Not if there is interaction. Doesnt mean there is, its just a matter of no evidence either way. Hence hte need for more research.
Evidence?
Oh thats right, it would take more research because the currently available stuff is limited by the fact that its nowhere near as high protein as routinely used by those on this site.
Hell some of the research classifies 0.7g/lb as high protein. The recommendations on this site sit somewhere around double to triple that level.
One of the most referenced example of a high protein diet having no deterious effects on kidney function had people who ate 0.56grams per lb bodyweight!!!. Wow, thats representative of what bodybuilders eat.
Yes, old news.
To say something is ‘healthy’ when the evidence does not support that conclusion is reaching.
And not one study shows that high protein (as 1.5g/lb+) doesnt lead to it. It also doesnt mean it will.
Nice controlled research.
Nice n=1
I dont claim something is healthy with lack of evidence
The funny thing is that you have no idea about what i think.
I eat a high protein diet, I am however not under the illusion that because <0.9g/lb is fine that any level of intake is perfectly risk free. If it does effect CKD risk, its a risk I am willing to take becuase there are other benefits to a higher protein diet.
Ya, the hospitals would be flooded because bodybuilders make so much of the population
Now show me the evidence that the bodybuilding community is not?
oh wait, that would involve doing research. Wait, what did I say earlier… oh thats right, more research needs to be done.
Im not concerned at all, I dont care at all. I have eaten a moderately high protein diet for 15 years, I am however saying that there is no evidence that high protein diets (once again 1.5g/lb+) are healthy.
I can provide evidence for upto around 0.9g/lb but anything above that is a guess
Strange how you think its not relevant, but National Institute of Diabetes & Digestive & Kidney Diseases (who you have quoted from) use albumin-creatine ratio (ACR) as one measure of kidney disease.
In 2002, the National Kidney Foundation published Kidney Disease Outcome Quality Initiative guidelines. Which is a series of 15 guidelines on treatment, nutritional support, assessment nad other crap of CKD.
Guideline Number 5 is Assessment of Proteinuria.
Under this guideline they go through a number of measures for proteinuria, including using a dipstick for protien, a albumin specific dipstick, protein-creatinine ratio as well as albumin-creatinine ratio.
But maybe its just not relevant to you becuase it doesnt support your opinion?
[quote]The amount of those with chronic kidney disorders judged by moderately or severely reduced glomerular filtration rate was 4.5% in 1988-1994, not the number you are quoting from:
[/quote]
No, Glomerular filtration rate is one method of measuring CKD.
As I have already said albumin to creatine ratio is a screening tool for CKD, not perfect in individuals (hence why they have repeat measures) but suitable for a population based study where the subject numbers are large enough (like the NHANES series)
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Once again, nice controlled experiment.[/quote]
Please tell me that you wait for “controlled experiments” before you eat anything.
[quote]
Not if there is interaction. Doesnt mean there is, its just a matter of no evidence either way. Hence hte need for more research.[/quote]
Is there a “need” for more research? I personally am not going to hold my breath or my nutrition for decades until a “controlled experiment” is done to let me know that my protein intake is ok. I suppose you can choose to if you wish.
[quote]
High protein didn’t cause high blood pressure and is not a risk factor in kidney disease.
Evidence? [/quote]
Evidence of the fact that protein doesn’t cause high blood pressure? Are you being serious? Why not evidence for oxygen not causing high blood pressure? We know this because there is no one being admitted to hospitals for hypertension because they ate protein. That is the evidence. I think the burden would lay on you to prove that people do get high blood pressure from protein. Good luck on that one.
[quote]
Yes, old news.
To say something is ‘healthy’ when the evidence does not support that conclusion is reaching.[/quote]
Something that has not been proven to cause poor health should not be touted as causing poor health. Are you claiming otherwise?
[quote]
I dont claim something is healthy with lack of evidence[/quote]
Then why do you claim something is “possibly unhealthy” without any evidence showing that it is "possibly unhealthy’?
[quote]
The funny thing is that you have no idea about what i think. [/quote]
And it is becoming less and less of a concern.
[quote]
Ya, the hospitals would be flooded because bodybuilders make so much of the population[/quote]
They make up enough that a conclusion could be drawn if the majority ofthem started running to hospitals due to their protein intake.
[quote]
Im not concerned at all, I dont care at all. I have eaten a moderately high protein diet for 15 years, I am however saying that there is no evidence that high protein diets (once again 1.5g/lb+) are healthy. [/quote]
So, you are making this point because?
[quote]
Are you looking at chronic kidney disease or simply grouping every possible kidney disorder? You do realize that doing the latter would not be relevant?
Strange how you think its not relevant, but National Institute of Diabetes & Digestive & Kidney Diseases (who you have quoted from) use albumin-creatine ratio (ACR) as one measure of kidney disease.
In 2002, the National Kidney Foundation published Kidney Disease Outcome Quality Initiative guidelines. Which is a series of 15 guidelines on treatment, nutritional support, assessment nad other crap of CKD.
Guideline Number 5 is Assessment of Proteinuria.
Under this guideline they go through a number of measures for proteinuria, including using a dipstick for protien, a albumin specific dipstick, protein-creatinine ratio as well as albumin-creatinine ratio.
But maybe its just not relevant to you becuase it doesnt support your opinion?[/quote]
It has nothing to do with my opinion. One of the primary causes of proteinuria is hypertension, followed by diabetes. You were asked where you received your information and whether you understand the causes. because we KNOW that the primary risks are hypertension and diabetes, you associating “high protein intake” with the disease is a huge jump to conclusions that are not based in science.
As I wrote before, the primary causes for these kidney dysfunctions is overall poor health, not protein intake. I don’t think it would be too great of a leap to state that those who do participate in a moderate carb, high protein intake diet are more inclined to watch their health than those who end up with the diseases listed. The question is, why would you associate this one factor to kidney dysfunction while conveniently overlooking the primary causes of the disorder?
Interesting thoughts.
Regarding the above-mentioned intake of 1,5g/pound of bodyweight, I definitely don’t consider that to be such an exorbitant value, even for a person who doesn’t follow a bodybuilding diet. That would mean a person of 150 pounds consuming 225g of protein a day which in my opinion is not hard to attain without the use of supplements and the like. Differing recommendations and the miserable nutritional habits of the majority of people I know notwithstanding, I wonder why there seems to be so little substantial research in this area.
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Professor X wrote:
So, am I to assume that you put the same caution into consuming other products?
Where did I say about caution?
There haven’t been specific studies done on long term coffee consumption directly.
So?
That doesn’t mean we can’t come to conclusions based on the many who partake in such activity for years on end.
Nice controlled experiment.
High protein bodybuilding diets are not new.
Really? i didnt know that at all
Bodybuilders have been eating this was since the 50’s…yet this isn’t long enough for you?
Once again, nice controlled experiment.
Then those risk factors become what causes the disease, not high protein.
Not if there is interaction. Doesnt mean there is, its just a matter of no evidence either way. Hence hte need for more research.
High protein didn’t cause high blood pressure and is not a risk factor in kidney disease.
Evidence?
Oh thats right, it would take more research because the currently available stuff is limited by the fact that its nowhere near as high protein as routinely used by those on this site.
Hell some of the research classifies 0.7g/lb as high protein. The recommendations on this site sit somewhere around double to triple that level.
One of the most referenced example of a high protein diet having no deterious effects on kidney function had people who ate 0.56grams per lb bodyweight!!!. Wow, thats representative of what bodybuilders eat.
The point is, the leading causes of kidney problems involve lack of health predominantly in populations who are not worried about their health.
Yes, old news.
To say something is ‘healthy’ when the evidence does not support that conclusion is reaching.
Controlled hypertension would not lead to kidney failure. That means that what we know for sure is that people need regular checkups and to control diseases like hypertension and diabetes…not sit there and accuse protein as helping when not one study would lead us to this conclusion.
And not one study shows that high protein (as 1.5g/lb+) doesnt lead to it. It also doesnt mean it will.
Have you missed the last 50 years of bodybuilding?
Nice controlled research.
I have a work up yearly and my protein intake is high and there is nothing wrong with me.
Nice n=1
Your worry about a possibility isn’t logical unless you hold this same bias for everything you eat or do.
I dont claim something is healthy with lack of evidence
Something tells me that you think of this very little when it comes to your consumption of several other items.
The funny thing is that you have no idea about what i think.
I eat a high protein diet, I am however not under the illusion that because <0.9g/lb is fine that any level of intake is perfectly risk free. If it does effect CKD risk, its a risk I am willing to take becuase there are other benefits to a higher protein diet.
If 2gr per pound of body weight were dangerous, don’t you think there would be more people turning up in hospitals as a direct cause of high protein intake?
Ya, the hospitals would be flooded because bodybuilders make so much of the population
After over half a century?
Now show me the evidence that the bodybuilding community is not?
oh wait, that would involve doing research. Wait, what did I say earlier… oh thats right, more research needs to be done.
Too much for what? We don’t have any evidence that those who take in high protein are at risk of anything so why, again, are you so concerned?
Im not concerned at all, I dont care at all. I have eaten a moderately high protein diet for 15 years, I am however saying that there is no evidence that high protein diets (once again 1.5g/lb+) are healthy.
I can provide evidence for upto around 0.9g/lb but anything above that is a guess
Are you looking at chronic kidney disease or simply grouping every possible kidney disorder? You do realize that doing the latter would not be relevant?
Strange how you think its not relevant, but National Institute of Diabetes & Digestive & Kidney Diseases (who you have quoted from) use albumin-creatine ratio (ACR) as one measure of kidney disease.
In 2002, the National Kidney Foundation published Kidney Disease Outcome Quality Initiative guidelines. Which is a series of 15 guidelines on treatment, nutritional support, assessment nad other crap of CKD.
Guideline Number 5 is Assessment of Proteinuria.
Under this guideline they go through a number of measures for proteinuria, including using a dipstick for protien, a albumin specific dipstick, protein-creatinine ratio as well as albumin-creatinine ratio.
But maybe its just not relevant to you becuase it doesnt support your opinion?
The amount of those with chronic kidney disorders judged by moderately or severely reduced glomerular filtration rate was 4.5% in 1988-1994, not the number you are quoting from:
No, Glomerular filtration rate is one method of measuring CKD.
As I have already said albumin to creatine ratio is a screening tool for CKD, not perfect in individuals (hence why they have repeat measures) but suitable for a population based study where the subject numbers are large enough (like the NHANES series)[/quote]
Excellent post.
[quote]Fahd wrote:
Excellent post.[/quote]
True. I have to give him respect for the research he did.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Fahd wrote:
Excellent post.
True. I have to give him respect for the research he did.[/quote]
I think the fat kiwi does this for a living.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Please tell me that you wait for “controlled experiments” before you eat anything. [/quote]You seem to like extrapolating information you have no idea about.
I do not need controlled experiments to eat.
Now if somebody is claiming a specific health property from something, a suitable form of evidence would be required.
[quote]Evidence of the fact that protein doesn’t cause high blood pressure[/quote] didnt ask that
[quote] We know this because there is no one being admitted to hospitals for hypertension because they ate protein. That is the evidence. [/quote]While I didnt ask that, what evidence do you have for hospital admissions USA wide?
[quote]I think the burden would lay on you to prove that people do get high blood pressure from protein. Good luck on that one.[/quote]Didnt ask that.
but nice try.
[quote]Something that has not been proven to cause poor health should not be touted as causing poor health. Are you claiming otherwise? [/quote]ya, thats why I have said multiple times “we dont know either way” but thanks for the input.
Note the word POSSIBLY
thats teh difference, I am not saying it IS unhealthy, but with the current evidence we do NOT know.
[quote]And it is becoming less and less of a concern.[/quote]I guess its better to be ignorant than have a good debate.
Show us the research then.
oh wait…
[quote]So, you are making this point because?[/quote]becuase you seem to be under the strange impression because I have enough understanding of the literature in the area to actually question the claim that high protein in any shape and form is healthy.
Nice dodge of the information.
When talking about prevalence and indicators of CKD, it wasnt discussing the cause of the disease, only the measurement.
[quote] The question is, why would you associate this one factor to kidney dysfunction while conveniently overlooking the primary causes of the disorder?
[/quote]
becuase we were talking about the prevalence figures, but you seem to have sidestepped that discussion.
[quote]michael2507 wrote:
I wonder why there seems to be so little substantial research in this area.[/quote]
In terms of the recommendations, the highest backed high protein recommendation is around the 1.9g/kg to 2g/kg… so around the 0.8-1g/lb level. this is what is in the resaerch. The higher levels recommended are usually based around anecdotes of a number of people.
Actual intake figures can vary just as widely.
In terms of why more research isnt done on higher protein diets is
nobody really gives a shit about the level a bodybuilder/strength athlete takes in.
the basics of it - To really research a ultra high protein intake, you would have to have some big $$ involved, and that would require sponsership from industry, which some people dislike.
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Please tell me that you wait for “controlled experiments” before you eat anything. You seem to like extrapolating information you have no idea about.
I do not need controlled experiments to eat.
Now if somebody is claiming a specific health property from something, a suitable form of evidence would be required.[/quote]
What claims do you think are being made that are not supported by increasing protein intake? the only ones that jump to mind are coming up with some specific amount that leads to optimal gains in muscle mass. This would be near impossible to determine regardless due to different needs in different individuals. Who is making any sort of claim like, “high protein diets extend life”? What claims are you against?
[quote]
We know this because there is no one being admitted to hospitals for hypertension because they ate protein. That is the evidence. While I didnt ask that, what evidence do you have for hospital admissions USA wide?[/quote]
AHRQ quality indicators. Guide to prevention quality indicators: hospital admission for ambulatory care sensitive conditions [version 2.1, revision 4]. Rockville (MD): Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ); 2004 Nov 24. 115 p. (AHRQ Pub; no. 02-R0203.
According to this, the rate of hypertension incidence to prevalence:
"[b]Rate (2002): 44.4 per 100,000 population.
Although hypertension is a common condition, hospitalizations for complications of hypertension are relatively uncommon. One study noted that hypertension accounted for only 0.5% of total admissions for ambulatory care sensitive conditions.[/b]"
Therefore, to act as if this information could even be gathered when most with hypertension do NOT seek medical treatment until their symptoms lead to advanced disease, it ia a huge leap to assume that protein leads to hypertension and thusly to kidney failure.
[quote]
I think the burden would lay on you to prove that people do get high blood pressure from protein. Good luck on that one.Didnt ask that.
but nice try.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter what you asked. You are bringing up points that can not be proven as of late and then claiming that you are not concerned. Why then would you bring it up? Just for mental masturbation? Why imply that there are “possible negatives”? That is one question that YOU have not answered yet.
Show me prevalence figures that implicate protein as the CAUSE of kidney dysfunction.
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
nobody really gives a shit about the level a bodybuilder/strength athlete takes in.
[/quote]
Why do you think it is that no one cares?