krakkerz, someone said how efective his training is because he set the record for non linemen at the combine, my phillips coment was SARCASM, the idea because someone benches for alot of reps their trainer must be great again that was SARCASM
shucky, boy great argument, you got big brain!
eddie, he has NOT been training that way for 6 years, I THINK it was his last two years in college but it MIGHT have been just the last year (they talked about it on draft day, how he changed the way he trained I’m just not sure if it was before his jr or sr year)
Hetyey. Please. He’s trained with Schroeder since his junior year of High School.
And please don’t come onto every thread telling everyone they’re full of crap without facts.
We know your opinion and some people just want to discuss the topic at hand.
krakkerz, I went by what kiper said on draft day, I just did a ton of searches on both of them and I am getting either jr yr, sr yr of H.S. and one “while in college” so I may be wrong. nothing I said is a slam of archuleta, his work ethic is impressive, I just think his training methods are dangerous and I do not believe explosive training transfers anymore than non-explosive training. push jerks are explosive right? “I was doing push jerks and as soon as I finished that, I stepped off the platform and I was walking around a little bit and my knee, there was a kink…” grant noe virginia tech qb on how he tor his meniscus (his “strength coach” was supervising his work out at the time).
the prob is that right now there is some 16 yr old kid trying to duplicate archuletas work outs and they are gonna get hurt. all the hype over schroeder, these are the athletes he says he trains;baseball=darrin jackson, brian banks, and chris singleton, football; chris greisen, brian jennings, troy drayton, and rob moore(who he just started training) not exactly a who’s who of all pros and allstars. if you want to see video of how archuleta trains and make up your own mind www.1artonline.ca/article…ponse.html
also remember archuleta was almost 20 when he graduated from H.S. and I know it sounds great to say he was a walk on but he did have offers from other schools, he was first team all central in H.S. he was ch12 news player of the year, and was all valey as a rb and a db in H.S. peace
oh boy oh boy.
I think most knowledged people would agree that explosive training can be very effective if used properly. One should have probably near 2 years of lifting under their belt before utilizing specific explosive movements like Archuleta. If you are already an advanced trainee then explosive training is fine because you more than likely can perform the movement correctly. That type of training does transfer over to football and other sports that require explosive energy. It won’t make you a great football player but it will provide you with explosive strength.
sorry I ain’t be knowledged but I do NOT think it will transfer any more than any other form of wt. training. let me ask you WHY would it? realy tell me WHY you think it would.
Try this: Perform a bench press using a 10 second contractions and 10 second negatives. Next perform a bench press using an explosive contraction and 1 second controlled negative. See the difference? I think that should explain it. Clearly the spd. of the repetition effects you and it also effects muscle fiber makeup.
the reason why it would, is there is this thing called RFD or Rate of Force Development, you look it up. When you are experienced enough it definately matters.
I’m not gonna step directly in the middle of this pissing match but will say that I believe in and perform “explosive” movements. I just want to correct some semi-misunderstanding regarding westside injuries. Louie fucked his back in the '70s and if I read correctly, Dave Tate blew a pec out in the early 90s before training under Louie. I’m going on all the shit of theirs I’ve read, don’t know them personally…Louie’s injuries were part of the impetus for the WSB training model and his selling point to Dave - unlike western periodized PLing, WSB uses less near-max reps at any given time than traditional protocols and thus presented LESS oportunity for injury. The speed reps are generally accepted to be restorative in their own right, and my experience with WSB leads me to agree…this is how you can train twice a week year round w/out burning out, risking injury from doing too many heavy reps in a week or missing a peak.
Somebody owes me some money!!!
am I the only one who’s seeing the parallel or similarities between Archuletta’s training and Coach Davies? Both unconventional, not everyone one agrees, and quite a few people thinking that the intensity is too much. Here’s the thing though: Archuletta is a stud. He’s now one of my favorite ball players cause he’s shown that you can make yourself into the image that you dream.
Quick Question: How can there be a legitimate transfer of athletic performance from slow training or Heavy Duty? I am not talking about maintenance or in-season strength training, but actual preparation of an athlete for the season. I have always benefited when my training was more difficult than the actual competition. If football is an explosive sport(which we all believe to be true), then it follows logically to train in a more explosive enviroment whilst preparing? I know that I am generalizing, but isn’t this at the core of the discussion?
riley, NO. you increase strength and it will transfer, you train explosively and you are learning how to be more explosive at a SKILL (be it benching, squating, etc…) it will not transfer anymore than any other type of training, believe it will if you want, but it will not.
scott, the speed you train effects fiber makeup? what??? think my man think
shucky, you are dumber than your name.
again heytey, not everything is that specific, you always talk about how the body learns the movement (intermuscular coordination) but never on how the body can learn to recruit better regardless of the movement (intRAmuscular coordination). Again you omit this as if it doesnt exist, and again you are wrong.
I saw that segment on Monday night too. I don’t know a whole lot about evolutionary training, but it looked basically like a whole lot of explosive lifting and a focus on the posterior chain. Both are great ideas for football players. Dman made a great point on the difference between inter and intramuscular coordination. The development of intramuscular coordination will undoubtedly help performance in any sport. You could probably argue that the more balance and body control a movement requires, the more it will affect intramuscular coordination.
I saw a post earlier on this thread that Louie's dynamic effort method is bunk because he was injured? I'll just say that this method of logic is pathetic. You cannot look at a strength coach who uses an incredibly diverse and sophisticated system of training and pinpoint one man's injury to one particular method they use. Louie has been training for 30+ years with loads that most of us can only dream about. He's also used steroids non-stop for a very long time. Put these two factors together along with not much focus on flexibility or injury prevention (at least that I'm aware of, maybe somebody can step in and correct me), and you could have a dangerous situation. You can't selectively argue like this. A strength coach trains his athletes with an entire system. You can't make up the cause and effect relationship of injuries with only one aspect of their training. Look at their whole system, and see what it produces. In the case of Westside Barbell, it produces some strong motherfuckers, and for a congregation of powerlifters, the incidence of injury is pretty low.
Alright…I’m intruiged,but…this is the problem with f@$%ing forums. Everybody is all over the place. Hetyey if I may…A)“I think explosive training is bogus and will lead to inlury” -of course it can lead to injury BUT so can any type of training. B)“you increase strength and it will transfer”-transfer to what? how? when?I know people who can squat twice as much as me but run half as fast. C)“you train explosively and you are learning how to be more explosive at a SKILL (be it benching, squating, etc…)”-sports are made up of SKILL(s)! D)“it will not transfer anymore than any other type of training, believe it will if you want, but it will not”-believe this if you want, but I will not. E)“the speed you train effects fiber makeup? what??? think my man think”-How does it not??? F)“shucky, you are dumber than your name.”-You may have one valid point!
My stance…I have been doing a circuit type training for a couple of years and it has worked very very well. I have seen results of this type of training after many years and it is quite astounding. This is all long before I heard or read about Coach Davies, it took me about two minutes to see that he is as good as gold for athletic training.
Shucky Ducky
Keep in mind, when you say that you need to get “stronger” you’re not being specific enough. There are many different types of strength, such as speed strength, explosive strength, endurance strength, limit strength, etc. Different types of training develop different qualities of strength.
dman I know you believe you get stronger while training low reps or explosively thru an abilty to recruit more fibers, but those are always the type of training recomended for people to impruve strength without size increases, let me ask you if you do get stronger thru greater fiber recruitment than why would there not be a size increase? if you now have the ability to use MORE fibers would those fibers not grow? wouldn’t that then be the best way to train for size? but it is not and everyone knows it is not. no one says “to pack on size do sets of singles and doubles then follow it up with explosive training” but if by doing so you INCREASE the number of fibers used you would produce better growth than any other kind of training but it does not do that. why? because its a SKILL you get better at, yea you will have some “real” strength gains but not as much as if you followed a system with greater “TUT”
doug, I responded to someone comments that west side lifters do not get hurt when they do and they seem to brag about them. I know anyone that trains world class powerlifters is gonna have injuries.
Hetyey, what dman is referring to is the body’s ability to recruit more fibers at once, thus generating greater force. Teaching your body to recruit more fibers at once doesn’t contribute to greater hypertrophy gains, at least not directly. What does contribute to hypertrophy is TUT (time under tension). The reason why higher reps generally produce greater hypertrophy is pretty simple… longer TUT. You’re under tension for a greater amount of time doing sets in the 8-10 rep range than you are when in the low rep ranges. Of course the majority of growth you’ll see in this rep range will be sarcoplasmic hypertrophy rather than sarcomere hypertrophy due to less tension (not time under tension, but the tension itself). So, in fact, near maximal weights will produce less hypertrophy (and more nueromuscular efficiency) than lighter weights. Hope this clears that up.
thanks some spanky and doug, heytey is as usual missing the whole boat in his response, not responding to what i talked about, ignoring RFD and other INTRAmuscular coordination aspects, and as usual, wrong.