T Nation

Evolution Museum Exhibit Under Fire

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=87&art_id=qw1157357884508A162

So anyway, here we are in Kenya – arguably the birthplace of the human race, and then along come these goofballs who are pissed off about the renovated museum’s awesome collection of early human ancestor fossils.

Here’s my favorite quote:
“It’s creating a big weapon against Christians that’s killing our faith,” he told AFP, calling evolution theory an “insult” and dangerous to youths. “When children go to museums they’ll start believing we evolved from these apes.”

Yeah, science is killing Christianity. Gimme a break. Anybody here like me feeling nostalgic for Intelligent Design christians? At least they weren’t so insecure about some skeletons.

We used to have creationists in Europe too, but I think they went extinct…

Holy Shit.

Which can serve both as my reaction to, and commentary on such drivel.

Warm me up a spot down in Circle Six, please.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=87&art_id=qw1157357884508A162

So anyway, here we are in Kenya – arguably the birthplace of the human race, and then along come these goofballs who are pissed off about the renovated museum’s awesome collection of early human ancestor fossils.

Here’s my favorite quote:
“It’s creating a big weapon against Christians that’s killing our faith,” he told AFP, calling evolution theory an “insult” and dangerous to youths. “When children go to museums they’ll start believing we evolved from these apes.”

Yeah, science is killing Christianity. Gimme a break. Anybody here like me feeling nostalgic for Intelligent Design christians? At least they weren’t so insecure about some skeletons.
[/quote]

Couple of points:

(1) So this belongs in the politics forum? I ask this not because I have a problem with it, but I am wondering why you would do such a thing when so many people might object.

(2) Since this does seem to attach the Christian faith or at least intimate that the Christian faith is ‘unscientific,’ I have no choice but to post on this thread – in the spirit of debating of course.

So, here goes…

I don’t know who spoke or wrote that quote about evolution ‘killing Christianity.’ I could not disagree more with that. Try as everyone in history might, God and His Word are still with us and people in every generation have been saved by His Word and blessed.

The fact is that evolution is simply not science, but an atheistic faith that attempts to explain all that we see without God or a Divine Being (i.e. without an intelligent designer). It cannot be science for a number of reasons:

(a) The theory does not lend itself to experimentaion and possible falsification. Therefore, it is not a scientific theory, but only a belief.

(b) The theory violates the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

© The macroevolution part of the theory is never observed in nature. We never see one species become another species. We only see ‘microevolution’ which is called ‘variation.’ A dog becomes a different kind of dog, but it sitll remains a dog. A dog never becomes a giraffe.

(d) Nobody was there at the time of Creation to observe it. Therefore, every explaination (including the Creation account of Genesis) is a religious belief that requires faith. In the case of Divine Creation – faith in God. In the case of evolution – faith in random processes.

The fact of the matter is that there is no scientific basis for teaching evolution as fact to anyone. It doesn’t belong in the science class – neither does Creation or Intelligent Design. All of these ‘theories,’ which require faith to believe and not fact, belong (if taught in school at all) in a comparative religion or philosophy class.

Just some of my ideas about the subject.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=87&art_id=qw1157357884508A162

So anyway, here we are in Kenya – arguably the birthplace of the human race, and then along come these goofballs who are pissed off about the renovated museum’s awesome collection of early human ancestor fossils.

Here’s my favorite quote:
“It’s creating a big weapon against Christians that’s killing our faith,” he told AFP, calling evolution theory an “insult” and dangerous to youths. “When children go to museums they’ll start believing we evolved from these apes.”

Yeah, science is killing Christianity. Gimme a break. Anybody here like me feeling nostalgic for Intelligent Design christians? At least they weren’t so insecure about some skeletons.

Couple of points:

(1) So this belongs in the politics forum? I ask this not because I have a problem with it, but I am wondering why you would do such a thing when so many people might object.

(2) Since this does seem to attach the Christian faith or at least intimate that the Christian faith is ‘unscientific,’ I have no choice but to post on this thread – in the spirit of debating of course.

So, here goes…

I don’t know who spoke or wrote that quote about evolution ‘killing Christianity.’ I could not disagree more with that. Try as everyone in history might, God and His Word are still with us and people in every generation have been saved by His Word and blessed.

The fact is that evolution is simply not science, but an atheistic faith that attempts to explain all that we see without God or a Divine Being (i.e. without an intelligent designer). It cannot be science for a number of reasons:

(a) The theory does not lend itself to experimentaion and possible falsification. Therefore, it is not a scientific theory, but only a belief.

(b) The theory violates the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

© The macroevolution part of the theory is never observed in nature. We never see one species become another species. We only see ‘microevolution’ which is called ‘variation.’ A dog becomes a different kind of dog, but it sitll remains a dog. A dog never becomes a giraffe.

(d) Nobody was there at the time of Creation to observe it. Therefore, every explaination (including the Creation account of Genesis) is a religious belief that requires faith. In the case of Divine Creation – faith in God. In the case of evolution – faith in random processes.

The fact of the matter is that there is no scientific basis for teaching evolution as fact to anyone. It doesn’t belong in the science class – neither does Creation or Intelligent Design. All of these ‘theories,’ which require faith to believe and not fact, belong (if taught in school at all) in a comparative religion or philosophy class.

Just some of my ideas about the subject.
[/quote]

These are not “ideas”. They’re reguritated, false nonsense of the sort that has people starting threads about why they want you to leave.

If you don’t even understand why the laws of thermodynamics have nothing at all to do with evolution, then it’s not worth teaching you.

And this belongs in the politics section because fundies such as yourself have made it their admitted plan to break evolution through the court of public opinion and the legislatures.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

Couple of points:

(1) So this belongs in the politics forum? I ask this not because I have a problem with it, but I am wondering why you would do such a thing when so many people might object.

(2) Since this does seem to attach the Christian faith or at least intimate that the Christian faith is ‘unscientific,’ I have no choice but to post on this thread – in the spirit of debating of course.

So, here goes…

I don’t know who spoke or wrote that quote about evolution ‘killing Christianity.’ I could not disagree more with that. Try as everyone in history might, God and His Word are still with us and people in every generation have been saved by His Word and blessed.

The fact is that evolution is simply not science, but an atheistic faith that attempts to explain all that we see without God or a Divine Being (i.e. without an intelligent designer). It cannot be science for a number of reasons:

(a) The theory does not lend itself to experimentaion and possible falsification. Therefore, it is not a scientific theory, but only a belief.

(b) The theory violates the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

© The macroevolution part of the theory is never observed in nature. We never see one species become another species. We only see ‘microevolution’ which is called ‘variation.’ A dog becomes a different kind of dog, but it sitll remains a dog. A dog never becomes a giraffe.

(d) Nobody was there at the time of Creation to observe it. Therefore, every explaination (including the Creation account of Genesis) is a religious belief that requires faith. In the case of Divine Creation – faith in God. In the case of evolution – faith in random processes.

The fact of the matter is that there is no scientific basis for teaching evolution as fact to anyone. It doesn’t belong in the science class – neither does Creation or Intelligent Design. All of these ‘theories,’ which require faith to believe and not fact, belong (if taught in school at all) in a comparative religion or philosophy class.

Just some of my ideas about the subject.
[/quote]

What you just wrote about ET amounts to me attacking Jesus for his sermon which included the mandatory sacrifice of little children.

You do not get to vote polygamy out of the Bible because you do not like it as well as you do not get to vote stuff into the ET because you do not like it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

There, it should take you less than 20min to find out why what you posted is nonsense.

[quote]orion wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

Couple of points:

(1) So this belongs in the politics forum? I ask this not because I have a problem with it, but I am wondering why you would do such a thing when so many people might object.

(2) Since this does seem to attach the Christian faith or at least intimate that the Christian faith is ‘unscientific,’ I have no choice but to post on this thread – in the spirit of debating of course.

So, here goes…

I don’t know who spoke or wrote that quote about evolution ‘killing Christianity.’ I could not disagree more with that. Try as everyone in history might, God and His Word are still with us and people in every generation have been saved by His Word and blessed.

The fact is that evolution is simply not science, but an atheistic faith that attempts to explain all that we see without God or a Divine Being (i.e. without an intelligent designer). It cannot be science for a number of reasons:

(a) The theory does not lend itself to experimentaion and possible falsification. Therefore, it is not a scientific theory, but only a belief.

(b) The theory violates the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

© The macroevolution part of the theory is never observed in nature. We never see one species become another species. We only see ‘microevolution’ which is called ‘variation.’ A dog becomes a different kind of dog, but it sitll remains a dog. A dog never becomes a giraffe.

(d) Nobody was there at the time of Creation to observe it. Therefore, every explaination (including the Creation account of Genesis) is a religious belief that requires faith. In the case of Divine Creation – faith in God. In the case of evolution – faith in random processes.

The fact of the matter is that there is no scientific basis for teaching evolution as fact to anyone. It doesn’t belong in the science class – neither does Creation or Intelligent Design. All of these ‘theories,’ which require faith to believe and not fact, belong (if taught in school at all) in a comparative religion or philosophy class.

Just some of my ideas about the subject.

What you just wrote about ET amounts to me attacking Jesus for his sermon which included the mandatory sacrifice of little children.

You do not get to vote polygamy out of the Bible because you do not like it as well as you do not get to vote stuff into the ET because you do not like it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

There, it should take you less than 20min to find out why what you posted is nonsense.

[/quote]

caca de toro.


steveo: Since you aren’t going to actually click the link to talkorigins.com and learn anything new, I will present you a picture of how order can spontaneously arise from chaos without “violating” any laws of thermodynamics.

You’ve seen this kind of thing before, yes? Every time it snows somewhere, there are countless millions of instances of these “violations” all over the place.

If you had just a little bit bigger understanding of chemistry or physics you wouldn’t feel compelled to post stuff like “evolution can’t happen because science says so.” The only folks that think evolution can’t happen are fundamentalists.

Science, and this is basic science here, not even complicated stuff with math and whatnot, quite clearly shows how order can arise just fine from chaotic systems. If you care to know where, just click the talkorigins link that was provided in another post, or look around the web for other sources: there are many that can help you… and this will save you from enrolling in a freshman high school chemistry course.

Here’s a hint to get you started:

The universe is very very structured. The way atoms and their subatomic particles interact is very very very (as in 100%) predictable. The factors that affect a chemical reaction are vey well understood and also predictable.

Also, other forces and phenomenon like gravity are constant, measurable, and do not change either. If I am sitting at my desk here, and I hold a can of beer at arm’s length and let go of it, it will 100% of the time begin to descend to the floor, appearing to “fall” as if by magic.

In fact, The entire idea of the scientific method is based upon the fact that the laws of the universe are constant. Bottom line: reality is NOT (absolutely not) chaotic. How long has the earth been spinning around the sun since Genesis? 5000 years? That’s pretty constant, don’t you think? :slight_smile:

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

The fact is that evolution is simply not science, but an atheistic faith that attempts to explain all that we see without God or a Divine Being (i.e. without an intelligent designer). It cannot be science for a number of reasons:

[/quote]

Evolution is science, it just isn’t natural science. You relly don’t know much about science, do you?

[quote]karva wrote:
Evolution is science, it just isn’t natural science. You relly don’t know much about science, do you?[/quote]

Really, that’s not even a question at this point. Even high school kids would laugh at his ridiculous “scientific” statements. Let’s just stop feeding the troll, shall we?

Excuse me, but last time I checked a living oragnism much less than one that can talk on this forum is far more complex. Evolution can be equated to this analogy. If you had an infinite number of chimps with an infinit number of type writers it is more likely they would run out of paper before they wrote a useful sentence.

The sentence is a molecule and there are trillions of molecules in our body. Hmm so far we have infinite number of chimps trying to write a words that all work together in synchrony to form something far more complex than an Encyclopdia set. Seems to me that they would run out of paper (not produce anything) rather than succeed.

[quote]TQB wrote:
We used to have creationists in Europe too, but I think they went extinct…[/quote]

Yeah, I think I accidently stepped on the last one next week.

I’m asked to fly over to the US to do some stomping there as well.

[quote]blck1jack wrote:
Excuse me, but last time I checked a living oragnism much less than one that can talk on this forum is far more complex. Evolution can be equated to this analogy. If you had an infinite number of chimps with an infinit number of type writers it is more likely they would run out of paper before they wrote a useful sentence.

The sentence is a molecule and there are trillions of molecules in our body. Hmm so far we have infinite number of chimps trying to write a words that all work together in synchrony to form something far more complex than an Encyclopdia set. Seems to me that they would run out of paper (not produce anything) rather than succeed.[/quote]

What does this tell us?

  1. blck1jack doesn’t understand infinity, nor it’s implications with statistical probabilities.

  2. Uses bad analogies, as the Earth has neither infinite matter, nor infinite time to work with.

  3. He confuses a cell with a molecule.

  4. Doesn’t understand evolution either, but at this point we aren’t surprised.

Thanks for sharing your ignorance with us. I hope you’re still in grade school.

[quote]hspder wrote:
karva wrote:
Evolution is science, it just isn’t natural science. You relly don’t know much about science, do you?

Really, that’s not even a question at this point. Even high school kids would laugh at his ridiculous “scientific” statements. Let’s just stop feeding the troll, shall we?
[/quote]

hspder,

I’ve seen you use the “Don’t feed the troll.” sign a couple of times now. I applaud its use thus far and would like to encourage its further use. Thanks.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
I’m asked to fly over to the US to do some stomping there as well.
[/quote]

HOLY SHIT I WISH YOU WOULD TRY!

[quote]lucasa wrote:
hspder wrote:
karva wrote:
Evolution is science, it just isn’t natural science. You relly don’t know much about science, do you?

Really, that’s not even a question at this point. Even high school kids would laugh at his ridiculous “scientific” statements. Let’s just stop feeding the troll, shall we?

hspder,

I’ve seen you use the “Don’t feed the troll.” sign a couple of times now. I applaud its use thus far and would like to encourage its further use. Thanks.
[/quote]

Totally agree! Well done!

I beleive I do understand evolution as I majored in biology. So stfu. I do understand the implications of infinity in statitics but because of the facts you have just stated it makes it even less likely for evolution to occur.

[quote]blck1jack wrote:
I beleive I do understand evolution as I majored in biology. So stfu. I do understand the implications of infinity in statitics but because of the facts you have just stated it makes it even less likely for evolution to occur.[/quote]

http://www.talkorigins.org/

And a link for you…

So you majored in biology, but don’t understand how/why evolution happens, because it’s impossible?

Since you’re so smart, maybe you can help all of us out here. There’s no such thing as species arising from other species, right? Because that would be evolution. Since evolution can’t/doesn’t happen, then all species was created at the same time, which is proven by the fossil record, right?

I’m sure there are instances of dinosaur fossils mixed in with bunnyrabbit fossils… we just haven’t found any yet. In fact, we still have a lot of digging to do, because so far, all the fossil record shows is different species sorted by what appears to be gradual adaption and change from one form to a slightly different one.

Also, I’m assuming that somehow there is a perfectly good explanation for why animals carry vestigial organs that would, upon reflection, seem to the laymen such as myself, as “genetic leftovers” from when they adapted from earlier ancestors. But what do I know? After all, you were the biology major.

Ummm… you did pass, right?

[quote]blck1jack wrote:
I beleive I do understand evolution as I majored in biology.[/quote]

Hahaha! Right, right. Please, inform us of the name of the prestigious institution of higher learning where you arduously studied that difficult topic.

Is it a place like this: http://midwesternbaptistcollege.com/index1.html ?

Because, let me guess, you minored in infinity?

What are the implications?

No, it just makes it more evident that you don’t understand evolution at all.

Taking a bunch of crappy, ridiculous ideas, calling those “evolution” and then showing how they’re wrong changes nothing to the actual Theory of Evolution; it does, however, make you appear dumb and uninformed.

My advice: Ask your school for a refund. Next time, make sure the school is accredited.