T Nation

Estrogenic Side Effects No More

With so much respect to the forum’s members (the most wise of all the Internet), I have a interesting proposition. Some of you might know me from another thread - if you don’t, I’m a student with a near-MPharm title, so everything I tell you here have a medical foundation (however, I will keep things simple, as they are - at least generally).

All of us have their individualized estrogens sweet spot, different for physiological level of testosterone, different for supraphysiological concentration. Proper level of this group of hormones is crucial for male’s health (physically and mentally). AAS induce or inhibit rate of aromatization in unpredictable mathematically manner, variable in time. It’s (almost) impossible to set a proper AI dosage before pharmacokinetic equilibrium of T and it’s derivatives rationally - that’s why the process is an medical art, an accident or just a countless trial-and-error method. Genetic and environmental (food, another drugs, supplements, pollution) impact on metabolism and transport (cytochrome, globulins, albumins, rate of enzymatic reactions done by your liver and kidneys, another organs) make things worse. You turn OFF complicated, adapting things well enough HPTA, thinking that you’re wiser than your CNS. That’s why TRT protocols are so hard to program, and while setting proper free T’s stable level isn’t so tricky, E2’s narrow range establishment is a challenge (and often takes time… Too much time, sometimes degrading a person).

If you currently take your AAS, alongside with hCG and an AI… Why not to kill your aromatase completely (switching to an irreversible AI) and introduce an ester (long enough) of estradiol to keep things under (definitely more) control? It would be much easier and cheaper. 5-10 mg of exemestane is just enough to kill >90% of aromatase, estradiol valerate is commonly available and ridiculously cheap.

So you set your T level, set your hCG, kill your aromatase (almost) completely and finally just search for exogenous E2 dosage (another for TRT, another for a cycle, obviously - depends on your needs). Sure, your enzymatic and carrying systems won’t let you keep your hormones concentrations always the same (as in physiology, who cares), but from my knowledge and experience - they’d be much more stable and predictable than with classical approach.

Who is ready for such a pharmacotherapeutical breakthrough?

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I’ve actually thought about this before, though not in nearly the depth you have. My thought was more like “hey, just set everything to zero, then add what’s necessary so you have the right numbers dialed in exogenously”. It’s an interesting proposition to say the least.

I agree completely and I’ve been saying this for a while. Mainly for guys that have sky high e2 but first guys with low e2 as well. It just makes sense to me.

This makes sense In theory for people on trt. How would you apply this to a blast tho? Keep the estrogen levels the same as on trt or increase them to a test/E ratio?

And is this only a good idea for trt people?

Could this be used for people cycling as well?

chamania are you going to try this experiment? If so I’ll follow along to see how it goes. Good Luck

I generally discourage the use of polypharmacy. While it may be effective (I’m unsure), it adds in the addition of two extra drugs one needs to dial in, potentially making a situation more complicated than it needs to be.

I just had my E test in at 360pmol/l, or something else really high like that, I feel amazing, very little anxiety, I have a normal to high amount of energy and whatnot. (My TT was close to 1600 and my free T was nearly 2000pmol/l, CBC all in range, lipids good, but LDL slightly elevated), all I would be doing if I was to follow such a protocal would be adding in additional drugs for no reason. Whether some people would benefit from this, possibly, I’m not sure, however this is more for blasting than it would be for TRT, people on 100-200mg/wk GENERALLY have no business being on an AI if they aren’t obese and have normal hepatic function (thus generally normal clearance rates of E) and don’t have aromatase excess syndrome (come on, no one has this, have you met anyone who legitimately has this… It’s so rare)

Exemestane has side effects (both androgenic due to its steroidal nature/structure and haematological because???) that may occur independent on its effects on aromatase. It can decrease WBC count (thus predisposing people to a greatly increased risk of infections) also has the potential for androgenic sides (however this isn’t an issue generally as we are using far more androgenic compounds).

Just my opinion, chemania is far more knowledgeable than I.

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It’s even better for a cycle. Estrogenic side effects are partly abolished with huge androgen receptor stimulation (some of DHT derivatives have controversial AI-like properties; products of HRE from AR agonists (AREs) suppress products from ER stimulation on different levels) - you won’t experience, e.g., an erectile disfunction with estradiol over the established “healthy” range with drostanolone and, let’s say, >500 mg/week boldenone, so you could benefit from those raised E2 from anabolic, lipid and glucose management perspective. From peaking for a competition point of view, you should rather lower your E2 to improve lipolysis and limit excessive water retention, so you can do it without an interference in administered AAS (by just choosing your E2 dosage, which is easy - with almost a linear relationship).

Sure, more pharmaceuticals could lead to more complexity and make a management of therapy more difficult, but not in this case. Most of people I know, from real life and from forums, still suffer from an excessive aromatization on TOT (testosterone optimization therapy). Most of them aren’t obese or over-aromatizing. (1) Pharmacokinetics of predominatingly used esters is far away from pulsatile HPTA secretion. (2) hCG is a necessity when on TOT, if you still have your non-damaged friends - what makes E2 production intensified (pharmacokinetics again; significant concentration of CYP19A1 there). (3) Most of guys want their fT to be in the upper range (or slightly above) - in a general rule of thumb, it means USUALLY more benefits. No BS about DHT-related sides if proper lifestyle is on (and more essentially - E2 is well managed), serious risks are highly limited. If you already need to substitute your endogenous hormones - why not to get most out of it (you still have to inject few times a week, probably supplement some minor stuff; I don’t see any problem of another drugs coming in)?

The thing is, primarily, that people are scared of drugs (education, ideology, ethics) and want to limit them as much as possible - which is fine, but not in the case, about that for a moment.

Side effects related to the drug are based on (1) E2 fluctuations (breast-cancer women aimed to completely eliminate the hormone, an indirect action of the drug is a bad action in this case), (2) rare complications coming from genetic disorders and (3) using a very high (25-800 mg) doses to induce and establish those side effects (in the case of overdose). It doesn’t inhibit any of CYPs. It possesses some androgenic properties (no gestagenic), but observed with HUGE doses. Immunological changes are probably related to removed estrogens. There’re some complications with lipids and liver markers, but again - those women E2 was near 0.

Conclusion - basing on characteristics of the drug and it’s results from clinical trails, no serious risks are associated when administering it to men in a funny, 2-10 mg/d dose (maybe even less is needed).

Your opinion is always valuable unreal, greetings!

I chuckled at this (not because it’s true, which it is), but because my free T is currently like 2.5x to 3x the top of the ref range depending on which ref range you look at (1968pmol/l)… I’m “on” at the moment if you catch my drift. Using 250mg e8d, bumping up to e7d. I feel great. E2 is something like 360pmol, I don’t remember the exact number.

My E2 was undetectable when I was on anastrazole (7mg/wk) to prevent premature epiphysial plate closure.

I’ve always wondered about people using super short esters for TRT and whether it’d give a better therapeutic outcome due to said therapy potentially more closely mimicking natural physiology (say TNE, testosterone acetate or propionate), then I think “but why would anyone bother with such frequent injections forever, that’s such a pain” + once again it complicates things.

I may be one of the few individuals who don’t feel the side effects from aromatase, on TRT I don’t use an AI or HCG (and my TRT dose is pretty hefty haha)

My BP is absurdly low (lowest I’ve tested recently was 93/44 I think), only side effect I have is water retention (probs more diet related than estrogen related) I consume a lot of sodium to help raise my BP (which is low due to my off label use of a selective adra2a agonist for anxiety/ADHD and my low dose use of atenolol, 25mg/day off label for anxiety/ fast heart rate… That is fuelled by anxiety…) My levels of anxiety is very low these days.

I hope you didn’t abandon this idea @chemania, and sorry for replying to a 10 months old thread, but this subject is nearly undiscussed anywhere else in this forum ( or in any other forum).
Going to start this experiment myself (created an account just for this).
I’ll be using testosterone enanthate and estradiol enanthate (twice a week), along with arimidex 1mg/day. Going to go through a lot of trial and error to find the optimal estradiol enanthate dose. I’ll be basing my dosage on the pharmacokinetics of estradiol enanthate.
The testosterone enanthate dose is 200mg/week, but it’s susceptible to change later on.
Ordered some Letrozole, so I can switch to 0.5mg letrozole/day (cheaper).
Will use proviron and/or masteron to tolerate side effects of high estrogen while I try finding the right dose.
Maybe will try Aromasin too later on.
Tell me if you have any suggestions

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Very interested in hearing your updates here. If you have a moment id love to hear a little bit about your dosing of estrogen. I wasnt aware of there being a “estrogen enanthate”. Thank you in advance.

Yes, estradiol enanthate exists, but as far as I know, it’s only sold as a raw compound. I’m trying a dosage of 2.5mg- 5mg per week.
I’m basing my dosage approach on this :
Idealized curves of estradiol levels after injection of different estradiol esters in women. Source was Garza-Flores (1994)

Jesus, wow… I really disapprove of this, using countless drugs just to quantify keeping T/E within the old parroted “optimum range”… just take the testosterone, you’re using… four drugs to accomplish what could be done (hormone replacement supposedly in this instance)

If you want to blast, go ahead and do that if you’re aware of the risks, but using test + synthetic estrogen + absurd dose of an AI + drostanolone/mesterolone… for 200mg test/wk… you can take that and feel fine, what you’re doing is unessecary and has far more potential to fuck you up compared to just the test alone (or the test + mast)

@physioLojik hasn’t been on here for a while, and probably isn’t coming back… but he does appear to check in once in a while and may find this amusing

Estradiol enanthate is a natural and bioidentical form of estrogen as much as testosterone enanthate is.
If taking only testosterone works for you then I wish I was as lucky as you are, but for guys like me who struggle with estrogen management it’s not as simple as that.

@unreal24278, I think this idea is not given enough credit. I feel it is untread territory. So many ideas have been scoffed at by supposed scientist that think they know everything. This could be the future of trt. It could also be synthetic testosterone that doesnt aromatize or cause suppression of whatever testosterone your making naturally. Big pharma is working towards that already. To me it seems just as plausible an idea as controlling your testosterone levels.

I highly doubt it, the level of complication associated with dosing test, using an AI and shooting synthetic estradiol wouldn’t be high up on their choices for an alternative. Patient compliance and level of satisfaction would be very low aside from perhaps the most dedicated, structured people… most people just want a quick pill/patch or weekly/e2w shot and for it to be done with.

I’m telling you, medical professions discourage the notion of polypharmacy, as each new drug is associated with potential for more side effects… this won’t be the next trt revsolution and the notion of four drugs being used to correct an issue that one drug can correct is (in my opinion, you’re open to have you’re own) one of the dumbest ideas I’ve ever heard. If anything some kind of sarm will be developed that maintains adequate homeostasis (neurology, bmd, other endocrine parameters etc) in pill form that’ll be taken once a day or… something like that

A ton of people start trt/ test, feel shitty/worn down and bloated, blame/demonise E2… the issue is almost never estrogen, effect of adrenals, thyroid, neurotransmitters etc are typically to blame. If you feel run for a short period perhaps drink a Diet Coke or something (absent of harmful chemicals inside, caffeine interfering with hormonal clearance… actually effect on E2 might be beneficial for you if you believe that’s certainly the issue) for the short term. A more extreme avenue regarding this would be taking ephedra or something… but that’s a really bad idea/slippery slope due to both the addiction potential and adverse effects of the drug on neurology, cardiovascular system etc

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I read the first couple of posts and then skipped down to the last 24 hours, so I may have missed something. Oh well. The original post is a stupid idea with no merit, and @unreal24278 says some correct things here. If your body was as simple as two hormones and AI’s had no side effects other than killing E2 then maybe this wouldn’t be stupid. But that’s not the case. Actually trying it is on par with beating yourself with a hammer.

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Lets not be dramatic Unreal. I’m 100% sure you have heard dumber ideas. Everything that your referring to are downstream of these sex hormones. If you perfectly balance test and estrogen then the downstream hormones should follow suit. I agree with you 100% that some sort of sarm type compound will be the future of trt. What if, for now, you made a compound that in one injection delivered your weekly testosterone, estrogen and suicidal aromatase inhibitor. That would simplify the process. You could be the brainiac that brings it to market. “Unreal TRT”! You never know until you try. Someone needs to do clinical trials. See what happens.

I’m concerned as to what the effect on lipids would be, it’s demonstrated when homeostasis regarding hormonal conversion/pathways in terms of T->E are messed with, trt or on Supra dosages (literature backs this), hdl takes a big hit. This might not hatter for all you healthy dudes out there. But for the general sedentary populace this would implicate an increase in cardiovascular pathology. So interfering with what you’re body would typically produce in regard to the rate/amount of which testosterone aromatises, we may have a statistically significant deleterious effect on cholesterol, in which for a sedentary dude even a slight change can influence long term atherogenesis… doctors are bound by the notion “do no harm”, whilst not all doctors may follow this principle… for a practice regarding hormonal optimization to gain FDA approval, a product that has a negative impact regarding long term cardiovascular ailment will be almost instantly, unanimously rejected when trt itself has minimal cardiovascular risk (literature backed)

The only use I can see something like this being beneficial for is for the rare case in which someone has a genetic disorder such as aromatase excess syndrome… in which case said individual could benefit… or simply trt with a primarily nonaromatisable androgen, one drug… far simpler

Some literature indicates that E2 does not travel well within the body, and that in fact we have the enzyme in varying concentrations everywhere specifically to make it where we need it. And, additionally, “Bioidentical” really only means that it’s the same as far as we can tell with current scientific abilities. That’s really not much credit to it’s actual real similarities.

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