T Nation

Estrogen Too High on TRT


#1

I'm taking 130mg/week of testosterone cypionate and my free and total T came back on the optimal high end, but my E2 is too high, 53.7 pg/mL (ref. range: 7.6-42.6 pg/mL).

I've read quite a bit online here and my doc doesn't want to do an AI for me. In getting an AI, is it really as simple as googling "research chemicals" and say "anastrozole"?


#2

Anyone?


#3

That's not critically high, and can likely be lowered to normal levels simply by lowering your T cyp to 100 mg per week. Do you really need 130 mg per week for normal T levels? What is your last lab value for T?


#4

My total T was 1080 ng/dL and my free T was 29.0 pg/mL. Top of normal, but not flying. I also do subQ injections on MWF (which is probably over kill, maybe knock it down to twice a week?).


#5

I forgot to mention that I'm dialed in on the upper end b/c I was having libido issues and ED issues. My libido is still sort of crap, but my ED is greatly improved. So is it necessary that I'm at 130 per week, no. But I've found being higher has helped with these other symptoms.


#6

Please read these stickies:
- advice for new guys
- protocol for injections
- finding a TRT doc

You need to get near E2=22 pg/ml and your E2=54 is horrible

Try to get RC anastrozole or get a new doc.

Take anastrozole when you inject. With a liquid product you can dispense 1/3rd mg
You will feel huge difference and good effects in 5-7 days.


#7

Please read these stickies:
- advice for new guys
- protocol for injections
- finding a TRT doc

You need to get near E2=22 pg/ml and your E2=54 is horrible

Try to get RC anastrozole or get a new doc.

Take anastrozole when you inject. With a liquid product you can dispense 1/3rd mg
You will feel huge difference and good effects in 5-7 days.


#8

Thanks KSman.


#9

Why is it that everyone here in this forum seems to thing that 22 is the magic number for Estradiol ? Another forum that I frequent talks about ratio's, not the magic number 22. They say that testosterone to estradiol ratio should be 14-20. When you compute those numbers... it would seem this guys Estradiol is fine. According to the ratio ... his Estradiol should be between 54 and 77

1080 divided by 20 is 54
1080 divided by 14 is 77

I myself was feeling fine with my estradiol at 53. However I convinced my doctor to prescribe Adex because of all the talk about E2=22 on this forum. We had the compounding pharmacy make it into .25mg pills. I took one and the next day I did notice a HUGE difference. I felt as though I had aged 20yrs. I felt every physical injury I had every had in my life. My ankle, knee, leg, lower back, shoulder, neck, etc.... they all hurt. Perhaps I am an over responder ? Needless to say, I don't plan on ever trying it again unless I stray from the TRT path and go to the dark side and do some "Blasting"


#10

Hello
While I'm waiting for KSman to reply I'd like to respond. The 22 number is an average. or what MOST people feel good at. If you feel good at 50+ estrogen then that is the number you need to stay at (I'm fairly sure that you are the exception) but if you feel good at that number then stick to it...


#11
 The ratio theory vs E=22 still makes more sense. Why would you expect your estradiol to be 22 regardless of what your total T number is ?

 As an analogy .... if you were baking two cakes, and one of them was going to be three times bigger than the other one..... would you still use the same amount of sugar in each one ? No you wouldn't, would you ?
 If the reasoning behind having the testosterone to estradiol ratio between 14-20 is wrong .... could someone please explain why.

#12

This forum is TRT and high normal youthful T levels are the goal. In that context, E2=22pgml is what it is.

If your E2 crashed on that dose, assume that you are an over-responder and follow the path suggested in three of the stickies.

When you get balance at the suggested levels, you are free to experiment and see if you feel better on different doses. Then you can get more labs and see what you numbers are then post your findings and conclusions about what works best for you.

I feel good at E2=22pg/ml and many others do. At E2=22pg/ml I did not feel a good.

Your well being is also controlled by your thyroid and adrenals. TRT can restore metabolic rates and the other systems might not be able to keep up. There is more going on than T. T is more effective when not opposed by E2. E2 controls SHBG and thus effects FT levels. SHBG+T is not bio-available. So reducing E2 can effectively increase the effects of T.

Your description really sounds like a typical E2 crash. You did not get E2 labs that day, but can find the lower dose that works then do lab work and make more dose adjustments then to get near E2=22pgml and see if life is better.

Ratio of E2 to TT is meaningless. E2:bio_T or E2:FT makes sense.


#13
 KSman, as always I appreciate all the info you provide. I have learned a lot from you. Although I have very few posts, I assure you that I have been lurking in here every day for at least 6 months, and I have read all the stickies several times. As a matter of fact I have read all the stickies on 3 different forums several times.


 On one hand you say the TT/E2 ratio is meaningless, while on the other hand .. someone else says E2=22 is meaningless.
 So I guess it's up to the individual to experiment and decide which theory to follow. Currently for me, it just makes no sense to think that the E2 needs to be as close to 22pgml regardless of the total. That would be like using the same amount of sugar no matter what size cake you are making.
 I'm getting blood work done in two weeks. I feel great right now, so I'm really looking forward to the results. 

 My current protocol is.  18mg test every day. / 125 units HCG every day. I do prefer Every day SubQ injections. It's easy, painless, no red bumps,  and I feel way better than I did with either EOD or E3D

#14

In the context of TRT where guys are going to have high normal youthful testosterone [known total], E2=22pg/ml works well. If you want to calculate the T:E ratio, go do it. But it does not change anything and does not guide dosing or dose refinement. Actually a ratio of FT:E2 makes more sense than TT:E2. And with FT from guest that is 4-5 times higher than many other labs, that ratio certainly has no universal value.

I have never had any use for T:E ratios. Somehow they seemed like a distraction in a TRT context.

When not on TRT and T levels are low, E2=22pg/ml does make one quite estrogen dominant. So there is a ratio, but its not in TRT context.