T Nation

Estrogen Poisoning

The necessity of an A.I. for those on HRT has been articulately preached by many in this section. However, I want to add my sorry story to hopefully prevent anyone from the horror of super high Estradiol.

I have covered this in my thread, but in short, I started HRT five months ago. 125mg of T cyp raised my TT level from below 200 to 550 at the 3 month check point. My E2 was 50, and I urged my doc to give me an AI but she refused. She upped my T cyp to 175mg per week. 

In the subsequent two months, I lost all of the good feelings replenishing T had given me, and I progressively felt more ill, depressed, moody, labile, easily overwhelmed, and my newly rock hard Johnson went progressively in the wrong direction. I knew it had to be high E2, but the only local option (I live in Costa Rica) was Nolvadex, which I self administered. One week ago, at the same time I experienced a multitude of horrendous life stressors (details on my thread-trust me, really bad), my E was at toxic levels and I KNEW it. I demanded a test, and my E2 was 155 with a Total T of 750.

 I can honestly tell you that this past week was in my opinion the worst week of my life. I have had major stressors before, but the estrogen poisoning pushed me to the absolute limits of my ability to cope in life. I became a weeping, bed-clutching, Lifetime watching, chocolate eating near-suicidal vagina. I cried over my newfound case of malignant E.D. as if it were permanent (think about that and you'll cry too.) 

 My pathetic doctor called and said they actually HAVE arimidex in Costa Rica (she had told me they didnt) and I finally got it four days ago. She aggressively dosed me at 0.5mg per day, and I doubled that these past four days, as this medicine to me seems like a cure for cancer. I can already begin to feel a reduction in symptoms, although I am far from well. I know in time that dose will need to be reduced, as I am well aware of the too-low E2 syndrome.

 I am curious if any of you have experienced this dreadful, toxic feeling, and if so, how long it took for the A.I. to cure the problem?                     Doc 

I listened to you and several others on this board and started my anastrozole today. From reading your post it was none to soon. I’m sorry you had to go through what you did. Perhaps others will learn from this and avoid trouble.

Yes. That’s exactly what happened to me, Dr. PC. I went to my TRT doc about this, say “48” is too high. Research shows low twenties is good and that Arimidex works well.

So my doc prescribes 1mg every day. Although hat’s too much, I got plenty to last me a while though. At least he listened.

Doc, if you keep taking that much your E2 will go too low. You need some for peripheral sensation of pleasure, for one thing.

You probably don’t need more then 2mg per week, probably closer to 1 or 1.25 mg per week. Estradiol test will be the best guide because symptoms of E2 too low are basically the same as too high, and I’ve been in both places.

At 155, I was and still am so toxic I thought I needed what we call in medicine a “loading dose.” With some medicines with a high threshold for side effects, you can get a jump start, so to speak, with a two to fourfold dose for a couple of days. I’m dropping back to .5 qd tomorrow, and in another week I’ll get another E2 test.
I actually have no clue if this loading dose approach has sped up the lowering of the E2, but I felt it was worth the risk. Probably more an emotional decision than a scientific decision…but you know, right now I’m pretty emotional. (cmon, gotta laugh).
Doc

Hey doc,
I have researched adex extensively, and with a three day half life, your serum level takes 14 days to max out. So until you hit day 15, wait for the blood work, okay? Maybe “another week” for you is 15 days…

KNB

[quote]KNB wrote:
Hey doc,
I have researched adex extensively, and with a three day half life, your serum level takes 14 days to max out. So until you hit day 15, wait for the blood work, okay? Maybe “another week” for you is 15 days…

KNB[/quote]
Actually, my doc scheduled the draw, it would be day 13. I’ll put her off two days. She is so freaked out now, she KNOWS she fucked up big time. In my field, when you mistreat a fellow doctor, AFTER failing to do what they asked, you’re mud. Silver lining, I can pretty much get her to do whatever I want now, like finally give me HCG too (yeah, she refused that too, despite my nads shrinking further and my LH being 0.1). Thanks, KNB Doc
BTW, therapeutic effects usually follow serum blood levels with most drugs. Lag times vary, days to weeks. Any thoughts on how long before symptoms resolve. Day five this morning, still no morning wood to greet me and tell me things will be OK.

From a philosophical viewpoint, I’ve found that the shitty doctors believe they are scientists and the good doctors understand that they are artists. Shitty doctors treat lab reports, good doctors treat patients. Shitty doctors tell their patients what’s going on, good doctors listen to their patients tell them what is going on.

Anyone who reads this forum on a regular basis using their critical thinking skills, comes to understand that the biggest problem with TRT (besides plain old ignorance and arrogance) is that doctors treat lab reports instead of patients. But patients also need to take responsibility and quit buying into simplistic approaches to complex problems.

The human body is a homeostatic system and is going to react to anything you do to try and change the status quo. Forgetting this is the typical way that doctors get their patients into aromatase problems from the beginning.

As for how long it will take for the effects to kick in… the obvious answer is it will take as long as it takes and you need to be patient. My own experiences and considering what others have posted of their experiences suggests that two to four weeks is a likely time frame. Personally, I’d dose at .25mg EOD for a month and see how it goes.

My trouble has been that the ana I take gives me VERY bad gas, bloat, and cramps. I may have to order the tabs designed for human consumption from an overseas pharmacy.

I’ve had exactly the symptoms you described, Doc. If I can’t get the tabs, I may ditch HRT altogether.

In all honesty, its not worth it. I feel better from a strong cup of coffee than I ever have from HRT. Rarely, I’ll feel really good but it mostly has been a waste. If the tabs don’t work, I’m done.

(When I was doing Dbol and 400 mg/week of Cyp, I felt very good, but no doctor will prescribe such a routine.)

The more I think about it, the more I think I’m done with all the needles and begging asshole doctors for help. Fuck it, I’d rather suffer like before.

[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
KNB wrote:
Hey doc,
I have researched adex extensively, and with a three day half life, your serum level takes 14 days to max out. So until you hit day 15, wait for the blood work, okay? Maybe “another week” for you is 15 days…

KNB
Actually, my doc scheduled the draw, it would be day 13. I’ll put her off two days. She is so freaked out now, she KNOWS she fucked up big time. In my field, when you mistreat a fellow doctor, AFTER failing to do what they asked, you’re mud. Silver lining, I can pretty much get her to do whatever I want now, like finally give me HCG too (yeah, she refused that too, despite my nads shrinking further and my LH being 0.1). Thanks, KNB Doc
BTW, therapeutic effects usually follow serum blood levels with most drugs. Lag times vary, days to weeks. Any thoughts on how long before symptoms resolve. Day five this morning, still no morning wood to greet me and tell me things will be OK.

[/quote]

Doc,
I was at 105 E2, and on day 15 of adex my E2 was to 47. I am currently down from 2mg/week to 1.5mg/week and still feel good and am not yet (again) breaking out (bacne) from my otherwise “modified” HRT dosing. To answer your question, it was almost a month until I started sporting spontaneous woodies again.

From my heart doc, things WILL get better. I (obviously) was a slow responder to the positive effects of adex, but I came back up shall we say. Some guys notice the effects in days, but we didn’t and that’s okay, because the cloud does have a silver lining. PM for specifics.

KNB

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
My trouble has been that the ana I take gives me VERY bad gas, bloat, and cramps. I may have to order the tabs designed for human consumption from an overseas pharmacy.

I’ve had exactly the symptoms you described, Doc. If I can’t get the tabs, I may ditch HRT altogether.

In all honesty, its not worth it. I feel better from a strong cup of coffee than I ever have from HRT. Rarely, I’ll feel really good but it mostly has been a waste. If the tabs don’t work, I’m done.

(When I was doing Dbol and 400 mg/week of Cyp, I felt very good, but no doctor will prescribe such a routine.)

The more I think about it, the more I think I’m done with all the needles and begging asshole doctors for help. Fuck it, I’d rather suffer like before.[/quote]

Headhunter, you don't sound like yourself. I like you better when you're full of piss and vinegar, calling out bullshitters and challenging morons to think. I even liked you better when you were ranting on asshole doctors. This newer, melancholic and resigned Headhunter is far too much like the estrogen-ridden Dr. PC who has been pouring out his angst-ridden heart and soul to the world on his thread.

There's gotta be a better way, for both of us. Maybe its Adex, I'll give Happydog his point about acceping responsibility (I should have gotten the Adex myself sooner) and being patient. But HH, I agree with you, if HRT just gives you a transient wonderful feeling in the beginning and then you end up endlessly chasing ideal T/E ratios while adding supplemental AI and HCG and who knows what else, it does beg the question-is it worth it?

It's still a science in its infancy, and I dont want to sound too negative. But when I look at how I managed thousands of psych patients, I didnt use any damned protocol, I used my knowledge, experience, and often a lot of creativity to craft a unique solution for each patient. why should HRT be so different? It isn't. There were tons of times where I tossed the treatment regimens that were "supposed" to work, and went back to the blackboard to come up with a better answer. We very well may need bettter answers than current HRT.                              Doc

Doc,

Many have suffered from that crap and, worst of all, many have no idea about why and suffer all the more.

With too much adex, you many fall from low libido from too much E to libido from too little. Libido should be showing its strength in 7-10 days.

You should change to .5m EOD for a while. No point in testing E2 when things are off the radar.

If you get serum E2 to low 20’s or 20pg/ml, your dose of T will be be strong dose! It will take 2 or 3 months for your head to clear completely.

Some how, my sense of sick irony, is picking up on the fact that a doctor is suffering the same shit that many of us mortals go through!

The tripod is T+AI+hCG

[quote]KSman wrote:
Doc,

Some how, my sense of sick irony, is picking up on the fact that a doctor is suffering the same shit that many of us mortals go through!

[/quote]
KSman, if I didnt know you were a friend, I would be mortally wounded by this comment, put on some emo music, light some candles, have a good cry while cutting my wrists. This estrogen poisoning makes you so fucking SENSITIVE!!! gotta laugh, doc

[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
Headhunter, you don’t sound like yourself. I like you better when you’re full of piss and vinegar, calling out bullshitters and challenging morons to think. I even liked you better when you were ranting on asshole doctors. This newer, melancholic and resigned Headhunter is far too much like the estrogen-ridden Dr. PC who has been pouring out his angst-ridden heart and soul to the world on his thread.

[/quote]

That was a pussified post I wrote, wasn’t it? That’s what I get for letting an ‘expert’ (at money grabbing) prescribe my HRT.

I’m going back on the 400 mg/week of Cyp. I’ll also do 40 mg/day of Dbol for a month, followed by 2 months off.

I kind of like the HCG so I may keep doing that. If the money grabber gives me some Arimidex, I’ll do that too. Otherwise, I’m going to do what’s right for ME. Enough with paying for some doc’s second home or putting his daughter through college…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Dr.PowerClean wrote:
Headhunter, you don’t sound like yourself. I like you better when you’re full of piss and vinegar, calling out bullshitters and challenging morons to think. I even liked you better when you were ranting on asshole doctors. This newer, melancholic and resigned Headhunter is far too much like the estrogen-ridden Dr. PC who has been pouring out his angst-ridden heart and soul to the world on his thread.

That was a pussified post I wrote, wasn’t it? That’s what I get for letting an ‘expert’ (at money grabbing) prescribe my HRT.

I’m going back on the 400 mg/week of Cyp. I’ll also do 40 mg/day of Dbol for a month, followed by 2 months off.

I kind of like the HCG so I may keep doing that. If the money grabber gives me some Arimidex, I’ll do that too. Otherwise, I’m going to do what’s right for ME. Enough with paying for some doc’s second home or putting his daughter through college…

[/quote]
Welcome back.

Just read your other thread too, I feel the same way. A long story but pretty much any dose of test and my nips hurt and way too much of abc family and no doc will give me an AI, 3 months on just hcg and no AI was murder. Now my test is at 119 and my doc wants to get it up to 200!?!?Anyways good threads man.

[quote]rfish1966 wrote:
Just read your other thread too, I feel the same way. A long story but pretty much any dose of test and my nips hurt and way too much of abc family and no doc will give me an AI, 3 months on just hcg and no AI was murder. Now my test is at 119 and my doc wants to get it up to 200!?!?Anyways good threads man.[/quote]

I have, throughout my career as a doctor, seen areas of medicine go through periods of time when they really didnt know what the hell they were doing. In the eighties, injecting schizophrenics with 100mg of Haldol per day or shocking them was one of those barbaric times. Now, we are upon another such time. The majority of doctors have no clue how to treat male hypogonadism. 

In particular, knowing enougth to give testosterone without knowing about the risks of E2 is very similar to giving schizophrenics that Haldol without its companion medicine: the Haldol alone ended up giving all of those patients horrible movement disorders like Parkinsons disease but worse.

The first day of med school they teach us “Primun Non Nocere,” Latin for “First do no harm.” Doctors still violate this basic principle all the time. Doc

[quote]rfish1966 wrote:
Just read your other thread too, I feel the same way. A long story but pretty much any dose of test and my nips hurt and way too much of abc family and no doc will give me an AI, 3 months on just hcg and no AI was murder. Now my test is at 119 and my doc wants to get it up to 200!?!?Anyways good threads man.[/quote]

Epistane/Havoc, both of which are designer steroids from Japan, are readily obtainable and legal. Google them. Epi is my favorite.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
rfish1966 wrote:
Just read your other thread too, I feel the same way. A long story but pretty much any dose of test and my nips hurt and way too much of abc family and no doc will give me an AI, 3 months on just hcg and no AI was murder. Now my test is at 119 and my doc wants to get it up to 200!?!?Anyways good threads man.

Epistane/Havoc, both of which are designer steroids from Japan, are readily obtainable and legal. Google them. Epi is my favorite.

[/quote]

I do have test cyp and adex, just trying to be good and follow doctors orders…this thread has had some good insight on E2, Glad Dr. PC started it, will interesting to see when his E2 returns to normal.

[quote]rfish1966 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
rfish1966 wrote:
Just read your other thread too, I feel the same way. A long story but pretty much any dose of test and my nips hurt and way too much of abc family and no doc will give me an AI, 3 months on just hcg and no AI was murder. Now my test is at 119 and my doc wants to get it up to 200!?!?Anyways good threads man.

Epistane/Havoc, both of which are designer steroids from Japan, are readily obtainable and legal. Google them. Epi is my favorite.

I do have test cyp and adex, just trying to be good and follow doctors orders…this thread has had some good insight on E2, Glad Dr. PC started it, will interesting to see when his E2 returns to normal.[/quote]

I'm about 70% back to normal, based on several indicators (I'm gonna spare everyone the details this time, lol). It's very exciting to feel yourself regaining your "self." I have my adex right next to my pillow, on top of a bible. I worship this medicine.                  Doc

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