T Nation

Estrogen on the Rise


#1

Hello everyone, I started TRT about a month and a half ago. Everything has been good and is still good. However, I got my labs back recently and the first time I have had Estradiol checked and here is the numbers:

TT: 633 (300-1200)
FT: 123.6 (35-155)
E2: 99 (14-55)

Now, I haven't had any symptoms yet and these labs were taken on the 7th day before my next shot.

I take 0.8ml of 200mg/ml weekly, so I take 160mg/week.

I have read all the stickies, but am wondering how long do you think I will be able to get by with E2 in that range before seeing gyno, or anything else? Asking because I don't know if/when my doc will prescribe for me.

Finally, can you just take half a 1mg pill 2x a week instead of having compound pharmacy making it?

If I don't care about fertility, do I NEED to take HCG? I DO care if my balls shrink to barely nothing, but I am alright if they just shrink a tiny bit...

Thanks for any replies.


#2

Try lowering your dose to 100mg/week and retest. If your E2 is still high, ask your doctor to prescribe you anastrozole or aromasin. Personally, I am not on anastrozole yet because I have a weird case of my E2 being too low (single digits).

If you don't care about fertility, you don't need to spend $$ on HCG.


#3

Thanks for your reply. However, I am steady in the 1200-600 range. That is normal values, and I would like to stay at the higher end instead of lower end...that's the whole point, right?


#4

If you can get the E2 down, you might be able to maintain the same T levels with a lower dose. Your FT level is great at 633 TT so you don't need to be much higher than that. Your steady range from 1200-600 is a big swing. You would maintain more consistent levels if you inject twice a week. Use as little as you can to maintain steady top range FT levels. Don't worry about reaching Barry Bonds' levels.

With E2 at 99 you should probably be on some Anastrozole (Arimidex) even if you don't notice symptoms. Try 1 mg per week and test every 6 weeks or so and adjust from there depending on how you feel. Back off of the dose if you fall below 20, or if your libido suffers. If your doc won't prescribe Anastrozole, you can order it online from alldaychemist or in liquid research chemical form.

Nut shrinkage varies from person to person but they can shrink severely to pre-puberty size. You can get HCG cheap online. A lot of guys here get it from safemedsforall. I use Gonakor brand from farmaciadelnino. It's up to you. Most docs don't care if your nuts shrink to the size of raisins.
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#5

There is a lot that can be improved. But you need to read some stickies

  • advice for new guys
    -- need all lab work and a lot more info about you
    -- we do not even know your age
    -- do consider the other problems that are suggested as possible causes
  • protocol for injections

Your E2 is VERY toxic.

If you inject once a week, your T levels spike, then drop. Your level on day 7 is reasonable, but that is a rather narrow perspective.

If you read, you will see that:
- you need to inject at least twice a week 80X2
- you need an anastrozole dose that matches your T levels
- so you could inject twice a week and take 1/2mg anastrozole at the same time, 2mg/week is wrong
- repeat labs later and adjust anastrozole as per stickies

So no side effects? I would say that you are not feeling any better.

We see a lot of guys who cannot get balanced on higher doses of T, stop thinking that more T is going to make you feel better. Some of this thinking can be drug seeking or self indulgence. When you start to feel right, it can be a real experience. T tunnel vision will not get you there. Your problem may be unrelated to low T, low T may be the symptom of another problem. The biggest problems we see hear are caused by doctors and it is often wrong to start off above 100mg.

Your testes are a major producer of pregnenolone, read the stickies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnenolone
You do not want to shut down your testes.


#6

Thanks for the reply Freddy77, I suppose I could go lower if I had less aromatizing going on. However, I am kinda "scared" to lower the dose at this point because I feel great and I am in normal ranges. I have an appt. tomorrow and I will ask about arimidex. Can I just take .5 mg twice a week?

I suppose I'll ask about HCG as well while i'm there. I have noticed a slight discomfort in that region, I understand it will go away with the HCG.

The whole idea of injecting twice a week is taking me a bit to swallow, especially if I am injecting HCG 3 times a week...that's like 5 injections every week! I will see what happens with the arimedex, if my ranges change to going out of range, I'll cut back the dosage. I really just want to be in the high range of normal. The "big swing" is something that I don't really notice, meaning that I don't notice any negative affects from it.

Thanks again!


#7

KSman, Thank you for your reply. I have read all the stickies...maybe I am just having a tough time digesting it all. I will re-read them.

Here is my stats:

-age 35
-height 5'11"
-waist at natural bend above navel:36.5/ at navel:39.5
-weight 190

-describe body and facial hair: no probs growing beard, and hair everwhere else.
-describe where you carry fat and how changed:
I carry most if not all fat around my waist,belly,lower back and chest. look lean everywhere else.

-health conditions, symptoms [history] : I have 2 herniated discs, severe DDD, and grade one listhesis in the S1, and L5 regions. I have been fat since high school with some yoyo diets thrown in there as the years progressed. My highest weight was 232 in high school. Before starting TRT I had low libido, ED, no energy or motivation, depression (from not being able to attain any goals with my body, despite best efforts for several years, bad memory, brain fog, barely any results regarding strength or muscle gain and fat loss despite several years of weights and diet and cardio. Anxiety, I believe from not being comfortable in my own skin...due to above...at some points I was "skinny fat", other times I was just fat. I had no confidence as well. TRT has changed that so far.

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever: I take naproxen,tramadol during the day as needed for pain. I take flexeril at night (one). I also take 2 fish oil caps/day 1400mg total / 900mg omega 3 in each tablet, 2 calcium tabs/day 600mg, one b12 tab 1000mcg/day, one multi vit./day, one vit D3 (5000) / day. No hair loss drugs, no prostate drugs.

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]: I am currently on 1g/lb. bw of protein and low fat diet eating 2700 calories/day. In the past, I had yoyo diets, but I don't ever recall eating less than 1800 cal/day.

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]: I am doing full body workouts focused around compound movements with one exercise/bp done mon.,wed.,and fri.

-testes ache, ever, with a fever? Testes ache occasionally in the past 2 weeks. No fevers.

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed: both have come back to life since TRT!\

I work in a lab and have run "shotgun" labs in Chemistry. All labs except Testosterone were normal. Testosterone total is the only T test we do, and we don't do Estradiol. My LH, and FSH were normal before going to TRT. Now they are like 0.1 or something. My T were 1.93, 383, 354, and 339 concurrenty before TRT. I don't know what the FT was at that time because we don't test for that either. I use iodized salt frequently, so I don't think there is a problem there.

I mis-typed the dosing question earlier about 1mg 2 times a week, I meant to convey .5 2 times a week for a total of 1mg/week. Didn't catch it until you mentioned it.

I really want to stick with the 1/week shot for now anyway. Given that, Can I still take .5 arimedex at time of shot, and take the other .5mg a few days later?

Yes, I am feeling a lot better, and I have not had any side effects except slight testicle ache every now and then. I am just trying to be as pro-active as I can be...for me.

I am not drug seeking, and I am not thinking that more T is the answer. If that was the case, I would be wanting more T...I am not. I just want to be and stay in the higher end of normal range, so that I can live a happy and full life.

I have also had a MRI of the brain to include pituitary with and without dye. The results were normal.

I think I have provided all that is needed. I HIGHLY appreciate everyone's time and valuable input. You have and are making a valuable contribution to my health and my life.


#8

Well, My doctor didn't feel comfortable with the Arimedex and HCG. So he referred me to an Endocrinologist that "will think logically, and consider unconventional treatment" such as this. My appointment is a month away, so looks like i'm going to have high estrogen for a month or so...I asked the doc if he would give me 4 1mg pills of arimidex to hold me over, but he wouldn't do it.

He said he sees the logic of it all, but just doesn't feel comfortable prescribing it to a male. I suppose it's just too unorthodox for him...Hopefully the endo will agree. I kinda want to just order some, but I don't want to screw up any rapport with the endo before seeing him...what do you all think?

Thanks


#9

" I have an appt. tomorrow and I will ask about arimidex. Can I just take .5 mg twice a week? "

You can cut the 1 mg pills into quarters with a good pill cutter. They won't be exact but they will average .25 mg. Taking one every other day would be 7/8 mg per week. It's common to use small doses of less than 1 mg. The liquid research chemical form is easier to dose in small quantities.


#10

Freddy77, Do you think the new Endo guy would think badly of me buying it and not getting it prescribed before I go see him? I don't want to give him the wrong first impression...ya know.

If I order it online and start taking it before seeing him, it may put a bad taste in his mouth about it, and me. What do you think about that?

Thanks


#11

also, how do you all order online without prescriptions at these places?


#12

Here are my labs I ran this Monday...(10.14.13): labs were drawn at 11:30am

WBC: 6.8
NE%:71.2
LY%: 18.2
MO%: 8.4
EO%: 1.8
BA%: 0.4
NRBC%: 0.0
RBC: 5.16
HGB: 16.5
HCT: 48.2
MCV: 93.3
MCH: 31.9
MCHC: 34.2
RDW: 12.3
PLT: 207
MPV: 7.3
RETIC%: 1.25

AFP: 2.00 NG/ML <_44
CK-MB: 2.1 NG/ML 0-3.0
CORTISOL: 6.89 UG/DL 5-25
EPO: 7.65 mIU/ML 2.6-18.5
FOL: 18.49 NG/ML 2-20
FRT4: 0.92 NG/DL .7-1.8
FERRITIN: 19.2 NG/ML 12-300
PRL: 12.27 NG/ML 2.7-13.5
PSA%: 22.86
PSA: 0.73 NG/ML <2.5
PTH: 22.2 PG/ML 10-70
TSH: 1.98 uIU/ML .3-3.0
TOTAL TESTOSTERONE: 713 NG/DL 300-1300
B12: 641 PG/ML 130-950
FPSA: 0.1 NG/ML

we don't test free testosterone, or estradiol at my lab, so I don't have it. I ran those a couple weeks ago as per above at quest diagnostics. I ran these so that I could give you all some numbers to work with since you don't like "normal ranges" as an answer.

NA: 139 MMOL/L 135-145
K: 4.0 MMOL/L 3.5-5.1
CL: 100 MMOL/L 100-109
CO2: 33 MMOL/L 22-29
CALC: 9.1 MG/DL 8.3-10.3
ALB: 4.2 G/DL 3.4-5.0
BUN: 27 MG/DL 5-20
CREA: 1.2 MG/DL 0.6-1.3
GLUC: 85 MG/DL 70-109
PHOS: 4.7 MG/DL 2.5-4.9
TP: 6.3 G/DL 6.1-7.9
ALP: 63 IU/L 31-126
ALT 38 IU/L 11-63
AMM: 27 uMOL/L 9-35
AST: 34 IU/L 15-46
CHOL: 133 MG/DL 135-200
CK: 530 IU/L 38-397
CRPH: 0.94 MG/L 0.00-6.00
DBIL: 0.07 MG/DL NO RANGE
LD: 135 IU/L 100-190
ETOH: 2.6 MG/DL 0.0-5.0
FE: 90 UG/DL 28-182
MG: 1.9 MG/DL 1.5-2.4
GGT: 18 IU/L 5-60
HDL: 42 MG/DL 30-70
LDL: 74 MG/DL 0-100
LIP: 32 U/L 10-50
TBIL: 0.6 MG/DL 0.0-1.1
TG: 116 MG/DL 30-200
TRFN: 269.2 MG/DL 168-336
URIC: 4.7 MG/DL 2.6-8.7

ANION GAP: 10.0 MMOL/L
OSMOLALITY: 281.9 MOSM/L
A/G RATIO: 2.0
INDIRECT BILI: 0.5
BUN/CREA RATIO: 22.5
TIBC: 377UG/DL
SAT: 23.9%

thanks for any input


#13

You can order online from those sites without a prescription and it will most likely get through customs. I carried 8 vials across the southern border in my socks and jockeys.

If you're going to see an Endo about HCG and the E2, I would hold off on self medicating. The Endo won't like it and it's better if you can get a doctor to manage it for you. If he will give you the AI but not the HCG, you might want to add the HCG yourself. The HCG should increase your TT level so you can reduce your T dose slightly. The doctor won't know the difference from the lab results.


#14

Thank you Freddy77.

I will wait to see what the endo says...hopefully he is someone that will think logically, and actually use his brain, and be able to think "outside the box."

as far as I can see the only thing that looks funny on my labs is the low ferritin. However, my iron (FE) is right in the middle of normal, and I am not anemic...?? Anyone have thoughts on that?

Also, my CK is elevated. However, my CK-MB is not. So that leads me to believe it is the muscle damage incurred during my stiff legged deadlifts. (:


#15

Ok, I think I have started to feel the Estrogen...today I felt good in the morning, but during the day I started feeling kinda "heavy and lethargic." Kinda feel sick in a way. Also, the orgasms have not been as good lately. I am going to try the 2 shots a week to see if it helps because I can't see the endo for another 2.5 weeks. If I take my shot on Tuesdays (I take 0.8ml a week right now,) should I wait till next Tuesday morning and take 0.4ml, and take the second 0.4ml on Friday night?

Now, since the 0.8ml shot brings me up to about 1200 TT from about 600, the 0.4ml shot should take me up to about 900 TT...so theoretically, I should be going from 900 to 600 TT in between shots...does that sound right to you?

Thanks


#16

Ok, quick update. I injected 80mg (half my weekly dose) yesterday morning, and by 12pm I was feeling GREAT! I suppose the lower dose didn't raise the E2 too high. I am probably still high in E2 though. Still feeling great. Next dose will be Friday morning I guess.

I have my appt. with the endocrinologist on the Tue. the 12th. Since I will be taking my shot on the preceding Fri. and the appt. is at 3:00pm, should I take my dose in the morning of the appt. or wait until I get done seeing the endo? He will probably want me to do labs.

What do you all suggest?

Thanks a bunch.


#17

Anyone have any suggestions when I should take my dose before I see the endo? See above reply for specifics.

Thanks


#18

My appt. with the endo is this Tuesday at 1500. Can someone advise me to either take the shot in the am. or wait until I have seen the endo doc? He will likely want to do labs. I forgot to take my shot on Friday night, and took it on Sat. morning instead. So if I take it in the am on Tue. it will have been 3 days since last shot.

Thanks for any response.


#19

bump


#20

I would wait, if you're going to stay on the Saturday morning/Tuesday night schedule, giving an injection every 3.5 days. But, if you decide to inject Tuesday morning, just tell him your 3.5 day schedule is Friday night and Tuesday morning. As long as he knows when you had your last injection, he can read the test results accordingly. HOWEVER, if you are worried about insurance coverage, you may want to hold off on the injection until after your appt. from what I understand, insurance companies want to see a low reading before they're willing to cover trt. Luckily for me, my original T reading was 170.2, so my insurance company has been paying the maximum.